Wire Fraud Recovery Guide: Kevin Tacher’s $275K Case Study | Title Agents Podcast Ep60

In a world where change is the only constant, Mo Shumil stands at the forefront, guiding title professionals to not just grow their businesses, but to master the art of innovation. With every episode, you're handed the keys to unlock unparalleled growth and stay ahead of the curve. Get ready for a transformative journey. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Title Agent Podcast, the show where title pros level up through innovation, leadership, and real-world insight. I am your host, Mo Shumil, Alltech National Title CEO, and today's episode is one you cannot afford to miss.

We're joined today by someone who is not just building a business, he's building a movement. Kevin Thatcher is the founder and CEO of Independence Title, a leading Florida-based title company. But today he's here in a new role as the number one best-selling author of the new book Intercepted, a true story of wire fraud and the race to recover. This isn't just another industry book, it's a true first-hand account of a devastating wire fraud attempt that turned into a mission to educate and protect others. Kevin's story is one for leadership, loss, recovery, and ultimately purpose.

Get ready for a deep dive into cybercrime and real estate, how to better protect your clients, what it means to lead with transparency in today's title industry. Well, Kevin, welcome to the show. As we start the show, can you please tell us a little background about you, where you grew up, and your college career, work career, how you got started in the title industry? Absolutely. So I've been in the title business 25 years.

Prior to that, I was actually a firefighter, which kind of leads into what I do, leads into everything I learned that helped us with the story we're going to talk about today. I grew up on Long Island, was born in Brooklyn, New York, moved to Long Island when I was a little child, lived in the same house my entire life, went to school there. I became a volunteer firefighter, worked for a high-rise hotel in Manhattan as the director of fire safety and security, which for people that don't know, that basically just means I had to know everything about the building in case the fire department had to come in in an emergency. I had to know every inch of the building as far as every elevator shaft, every stairwell, every standpipe, every sprinkler system, staircases, where they went, where they ended. In New York City, not that easy when you're dealing with a 48-story building.

So I was always really involved in anything I did. The fire department, I worked my way up in six years to a captain, leading people. I used to run an organization, the junior fire department, which was encouraging the younger generation to get involved in the fire service. I became a medic and I was doing that for a little bit. And it took a turn where they told me, you know, you have to be a medic.

And I was like, I got my license to be a medic, but I don't enjoy that. Like that's not my future. And because in the world of firefighting, there's very little fires and more medical calls. I decided to take a leave of absence, moved down to Florida, a family member owned a mortgage company down in Fort Lauderdale, said, hey, why don't you come work for me and let's see how it goes. And I was very young.

I was only 23. So I said, what do I have to lose? I took a leave of absence and moved down to Florida. Never went back. Got into the mortgage business for a while, doing a lot of cold calling, getting some clients handling the loans.

And then a guy that took me under his wing as a mentor said, why don't you go get your real estate license? I'll send you some buyers. We'll pre-approve them. You'll find them a home. You'll help me do the mortgage and we'll all make a nice, you know, salary at the end of the day.

Thought it was great. So I did that for about two years, opened my own real estate company and then started realizing that the title people I'm doing business with are providing a horrible customer service experience. And so eventually I partnered with a real estate attorney and opened up my own title company and I was doing all three. I was finding a couple of clients a year. I was finding them a home, doing their mortgage, handling their closing, giving them discounts across the board.

And at the end of the day, they loved me. And then you fast forward back to 2008, 2009, I had an opportunity to work with a very large real estate brokerage. But the goal was I had to shut down everything but title. And I did that. And since 2003, I've had my company and I've been doing title insurance ever since, full time.

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You know, I think it's, you know, I read a book and was mentored under a gentleman by the name of Bob Berg, B-U-R-G, wrote a book called The Go-Giver. He became a dear friend of mine. He lives right up in Jupiter, Florida. We chat every so often. And it was really about the go-giver mentality.

And that was the same as being a firefighter. You know, it's about running into emergencies when everyone else is running out. And I hope my legacy at the end of the day from a business perspective is someone that was always given, you know, given his all to the industry. Someone that is always giving to his clients, trying to solve problems for his clients. And the payday comes later, right?

I just, I thoroughly enjoy what I do. I've been on many local and national media platforms. I had a big piece on Fox News many years ago for a lady that was a victim of wire fraud at a title company, not our title company. And we eventually took on the case. I helped her recover.

I set up a GoFundMe, got her on Fox News. We recovered half her money and set up a GoFundMe for the other half and eventually closed on the home for her. She was a single mother, three children, working three jobs, and she lost her entire life savings. So, you know, I find myself just wanting to always serve the community just as I did when I was a firefighter. And that relates now into the business I do today with constantly giving back to charity, giving back to the community, giving back to our children, giving back to our veterans.

And I use the title company as a vehicle to be able to serve the community well. And that's what I enjoy. So hopefully that's my legacy. That's awesome. It's very well said.

Let's talk about your new book, Intercepted. It's a raw and real story. What inspired you to finally put it into writing and publish it? Yeah, so it was something that not necessarily for the regular person out there. It was more for the industry because I went through a process where, like everyone, you think you have bulletproof systems in place.

You're not going to be a victim. We have triple check in place. And what we learned through failure of one of our employees that was rushing to get a deal done, they fell for the standard change of wiring instructions. And at which point we found out the money was gone, $275,000. And we wanted to just share the story with the industry of what we learned throughout the process of what misconceptions you have as a title professional of who really has your back, who protects you, who's going to cover you, who's going to walk you through the process, who's going to live side by side while you're going through this trauma.

Because at the end of the day, thank God ours was $275,000. It wasn't going to bankrupt me. But imagine if it was a million or five million or, you know, 750,000. If it was a much larger amount, it would have been a lot harder to recover from. So it's a very easy read.

It's a very thin book, looks like this. And it became an Amazon bestseller. And in the back of the book, there's a downloadable PDF for people to have a rapid recovery response plan that is time tested and proven. I know I spoke to you about it earlier, where I told you the ones that everyone puts out, whether it's our national or local organizations or our underwriter, the rapid recovery things, you know, like the number one thing they tell you to do is file the IC3 form with the FBI. It's totally useless.

Yes, you need to file it. I'm not saying don't file it. But that's like the last thing you need to do because nobody would look at it for a week. So we go through the book. Every chapter is talking about a different person that we interacted with, whether it was the seller, the seller's attorney, the underwriter, the insurance company, the bank, the FBI, the Secret Service, all the way through this process.

And thank God at the end of the day, we're all going to be able to recover from this. Like the number one thing they tell you to do is file the IC3 form with the FBI. It's totally useless. Yes, you need to file it. I'm not saying don't file it.

But that's like the last thing you need to do because the FBI will call us back for a week. So we go through the book. Every chapter is talking about a different person that we interacted with, whether it was the seller, the seller's attorney, the underwriter, the insurance company, the bank, the FBI, the Secret Service, all the way through this process. And thank God at the end of the day, our efforts recovered 86.66% of the seller's money. And we paid out of pocket to make them totally whole.

Plus we gave them a $5,000. We're sorry this happened to you. And we paid their attorney off in full. And we feel good about it. Can you walk us through the, if you don't mind, like share a story, like what happened.

And this seems like it's a social engineering case. This podcast is made possible by our sponsor. You have worked so hard to build your business. So why do 70 to 80% of businesses never sell? The truth is most owners wait too long.

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We had no compromise in ours. So we assume it was the seller's. Your typical scam, they're watching the movement of money. They intercepted, which is why we came up with the name Intercepted. They intercepted themselves into the transaction, emailed our closer, fake wiring instructions.

Closer obviously put it into funding, said she verified it when she did it. And that was why I couldn't even understand how it happened. But mistakes happen. How do you verify? Do you call the bank?

Do you call the borrower? Yeah, we verify. We call the clients. In this case, it would have been the seller's attorney. We would have called and said, hey, we received a change of wiring instructions.

We just wanna verify that that's authentic. For whatever reason, that employee that no longer works for me now totally missed all of the steps in place. And we wired out $275,000 to a fake account. And that's where the story began of the, we didn't get our money. Let's look where it went.

How much time passed, elapsed? Two days. So two days. It went out on a Monday, I believe on a Monday. And we got the call at some point on Wednesday.

And we were able to start the process of what we thought needed to happen. Okay, so walk us through the process. So it was Monday, it was the wire. Wednesday, get a call from Panic and Seller. Like, hey, where's my money?

Can you walk us through the process? What steps you've taken? Trying to follow all the best practices we said was not very kind of, yeah, it was not practical. So in the book, I mean, obviously we talk about it and walk you through step-by-step. But the Reader's Digest version, the first thing you need to do is call the bank to put a recall on it.

The thing we learned about the bank is although, yes, these are all steps you need to take, the bank is going to send a service request through their computer to another bank. That could take 24, 48 hours. Someone may open it. Someone may do something about it. So that's the first step of what they tell you you're supposed to do is put a service request in with your bank to put a stop on it.

The banks don't have a way of communication, which we learned. So like we banked with one bank, they don't have the ability to be able to call the bank and say, hey, you just received the wire. Please stop it. It was fraudulent. We need to return it, which blows my mind why that doesn't happen.

But either way- I think with the major banks, it's almost impractical. They have thousands, if not millions of transactions a day. That's my belief, but maybe with a small bank, it'd be a lot easier. They can call them up. But a big bank- They won't even talk to you.

So that was basically step number one that you do have to do that didn't really help us get anything back. I will tell you the two steps that are the most important that really helped us get the money back. The Secret Service, the men and women that have the earpieces in that you think are just protecting the president and high-end people, there's actually a whole division with the Secret Service, not the FBI, but the United States Secret Service that deals with this. So that's your first step. It's a white-collar crime division, right?

Yeah. That's your first step. You need to go to the Secret Service and file a report with them for they can stop the money instantly. They're the only people that can, and then they're the only people that will stop that money. And we learned through some of these third-party companies that you can hire to help you in the recovery process.

That's basically what they do. I have contacts at the Secret Service. I remember a while back, a friend of mine I went to high school had sent me a Secret Service agent's number and said, hey, by the way, and he's in the title business, he said, if you ever have a problem, here's who you call. I had a problem. Here's who I called.

Literally put a stop request. And I'll tell you the other thing that I did that is a little out of the box that most people don't think of is the money went to Citizens Bank. And I went on LinkedIn and I searched everyone at Citizens Bank to try and find out their email addresses. And I used ChatGPT, and I said, I wanna know the email domain for Citizens Bank to be able to email the employees. And it told me firstname.lastnameatcitizensbank.com.

Great. So I drafted an email. I went on LinkedIn, and I probably found about 50 to 100 people that worked at Citizens Bank, no matter who they were, from a teller all the way up to the president of the company and I started drafting emails. Firstname.lastnameatcitizensbank.com. Fired off, fired off, fired off all these emails.

I got a bunch back that said, you're a scammer, go away. But I did get a bunch back that said, we're gonna forward this in and try and get some resolution. So I truly believe that that also was able to put an emergency freeze request on the account fairly quickly and start the process of recovery because the money was no longer in the account that we sent it to. What they do is that money went from our bank to Citizens Bank, from Citizens Bank to four different banks. And we had to get the process of stopping those as quickly as possible.

And I never forget, I got a call from one of the people at Citizens Bank that said, I have good news to report. You have 200 coming back to you. 200,000 coming back. And I'm like, wow, that's great. Out of 275, 200, I'll take it.

And he says, but it's gonna be about a week. I waited a week patiently. I got a check for $200. And I called him crazy. Like you said 200,000, are you playing with me?

That just happened to be the amount that was left in the account when they froze it was the $200. But we did eventually get back the 200,000 as he spoke. So I think those are the two most important. Secret service and reaching out to the receiving bank through a means of either go visit the bank, which we did, email the bank, call the bank. Although calling doesn't help, but you can email, try and get someone that will feel sympathetic for you and help you.

What did not work was going to the underwriter. They don't really wanna help you. They have no resources for you. Our bank emailing is just a slow process. They say, you just have to wait, wait it out.

The FBI, same thing. They said, there's nothing we can do. We deal with this every single day. So we kind of got stuck and had to figure out a solution ourselves. Believe it or not, we had a similar case with Citizens Bank.

We're able to recover for like 90% of the money. Something with Citizens Bank, I mean, they just open anybody's account. Maybe they did not do the proper due diligence when they open accounts. The interesting part is what we learned through this process is that the bank account, it was a legitimate bank account and a legitimate company name. So the accounts open legally.

What I learned in the process is that when you send a wire to a bank, as long as the account number is a valid account number, they will credit that account regardless of the name. So in our case, the name of the wire was the seller. The name on the bank account was not the seller. The bank has no legal obligation to match the account number and the name on the account that it matched. That makes no sense.

But again, this is kind of like what we're learning through this process, that that to me doesn't make sense. So it goes back to your initial question, like why did we write the book? And we wrote the book to obviously educate the title community nationwide on things they can look out for. But more importantly, my next step is taking this to a federal level to figure out how do we get these things changed? How do we get better processes?

and the name on the account that it has. That makes no sense. But again, this is kind of like what we're learning through this process, that that to me doesn't make sense. So goes back to your initial question, like why did we write the book? And we wrote the book to obviously educate the title community nationwide on things they can look out for.

But more importantly, my next step is taking this to a federal level to figure out how do we get these things changed? How do we get better processes in place to stop this? Because this is a multi, multi, multi-billion dollar business for people, and it can be easily stopped. Because what we're learning is they're not setting up fake accounts in the name of the seller. They just have a bank account.

And as long as the bank account number matches, the money gets credited, and then they're ready to spider that money out as quick as possible. And the sad part is that these accounts are legit, and they're typically like a mule. There's blackmail involved. A lot of times they kind of scam somebody and blackmail somebody to open an account and receive the funds, then transfer them to whoever that bad actor may be in Nigeria, Russia, China, whatever. They may be- It's crazy.

It is crazy. Crazy, but we wrote a good story about it, and we smile about it. We're still in business. We're rocking and rolling, and we have measures in place now to prevent that from ever happening again as far as verifying wiring instructions through a third party that needs to be in the file in order to release the wire. And if it's not in there, we don't send the wire, which we thought we had it covered.

We're not a huge operation. There's only a couple of processors, so it's very easy to follow the system, but until they don't follow it, then you have a problem. So how did this event change the way you operate your business, both technically and emotionally, as a leader? Yeah, I mean, we wrote about that in the book, like how it made us feel. I really felt like my credibility was at stake, even though one of my employees was the one that did the mistake.

My credibility, my reputation, my integrity is everything in business. So obviously we thought that was gonna be in jeopardy and play a big part of possibly putting us out of business, who knows? And so we learned, right? We learned through that process of how our integrity really held true to the deal, open lines of communication with the seller's attorney, open lines of communication with the insurance company and the bank, and just continuing that process. And that's what worked for us.

At the end of the day, the seller's attorney was very grateful for everything we did. Seller wasn't so grateful, they just wanted their money, but she understood, she knew who I was, and that credibility and that reputation carried us through the transaction. Now, post-transaction, obviously we put tons of security measures in place now. We are using a third-party software called Safe Validation in order to verify the success of the account, which is now backed by, I believe, a two or $5 million insurance policy. If we get a success and we send it, then obviously it's covered.

We also learned throughout the process of what most title agents think. We have $2 million in E&O and cyber liability coverage. We realized only 25% of that was actually accessible in a claim like this, which means that we only had $250,000 in coverage for something that we thought we had millions in coverage. The most cyber policies have a limit on social engineering at the highest risk, that social engineering. It used to be a max of $100,000, I think recently it went to $250,000.

So that's, insurance companies don't want to increase that, because they know that is the biggest vulnerability is like the human- This podcast is proudly sponsored by Need extra hands without extra overhead? Meet Safi Virtual, your on-demand team of virtual assistants trained specifically for the title industry. Our VAs come with foundational knowledge of title insurance, ready to handle admin tasks, client communication, data entry and more. So you can focus on closing deals, not paperwork. Scale smarter, work faster and cut costs without sacrificing quality.

Visit safivirtual.com or DM us to find your perfect VA. Safi Virtual, expert support, tailored for title professionals. I didn't know. So now we've since, you know, we have a $250,000 policy, I have another $250,000 rider to that policy. So I have 500,000 in coverage and we're backed by the company that verifies it for, you know, for two or $5 million and, you know, the staff understands what we went through.

They appreciated that obviously we were upfront and honest throughout the entire process. They saw what I was going through. And as a team, we came out stronger and we have measures in place. So the hope is that this would never happen again. And we do a lot of verification and a lot of, you know, don't forget, we're not gonna change wiring instructions, but this wasn't a, you know, them sending it to us.

This was us sending it to them. So I feel like the process of them sending it to us, we pretty had it down pack because we talked to them right from day one, but this was money going out from us out. And that employee just fell for that good old scam, you know, it changed my life. You catch people the right moment, like either stress or having a bad day, or it's, I mean, we're human. I think that it's just, it is what it is, unfortunately.

Yeah, and that's what it was. It just happened to be a stressful day, a last minute rush. The realtor wanted the deal funded, and it was like just so many moving pieces in this transaction, and that's what happened. God forbid it delayed the wire. God forbid.

I don't even think it's delayed the wire, God forbid it delays their commission. Commission, commission, I'm sorry, you're correct. The commission, not the wire. They're worried about their commission. It's like, you know, we need to fund it, let's go, let's go.

And it's like, everyone rushes, and then, you know, you lose your train of thought, what you're working on, and. My, like literally, the weakest link in the transaction is the realtor, in my opinion. And literally, I'm still baffled by how there is, there are like no regulation, or kind of, you have to have a professional email account versus like the Yahoo's, and like this is, that is the weakest link, is the realtor, not the title professional, not the mortgage industry. We're under a lot of scrutiny. We spend tens, and tens, and tens of thousands of dollars to stay safe, but still, you can't protect against that weakest link.

You can't. And that's what we, I mean, the seller wanted to sue us for way more money, and I had a heart-to-heart with the attorney, and I said, listen, at the end of the day, I'm gonna be able to go to court, and I appreciate that, you know, that they want money, but I said, I'm not just throwing them money just because, because I can prove that the compromise came from either their email or their agent's email, because that's basically the only people that were, you know, where that email came from, where our system wasn't compromised. So, listen, at the end of the day, we settled with them for five grand versus what they, you know, they wanted to go to court, you know, we would have been happy to. We probably would have proved our case, but I also felt bad for them, like, you know, but they weren't out of money that long. It was only 15 days before we got the money back, and, you know, we got that money through insurance, and then we were able to pay back insurance, and we were able to, you know, almost make them fully whole at the beginning, and so we moved on.

In that scenario that I mentioned earlier, involving Citizens Bank, we literally, the fault was 100% realtor. Somebody, they downloaded, they clicked on a link, and somebody hijacked the computer. So the email was legit. I mean, the email, everything was legit. So we did go after the brokerage.

We sued them, and we got the pay that settled for the remainder of the money that was not recovered, so. Yeah, we came out of pocket with it. At the end of the day, I've been in business 25 years for me to cut a check for five grand, and the attorney, another 1,500 wasn't the end of the day. I wasn't gonna start with the whole lawsuits and all that, because we honestly made a mistake as well, right? So we owned part of it as well, but we did everything we could to get them fully whole and take care of their legal expenses and lesson learned.

And we sold enough books to make the attorney whole in their money. And that's basically, that was my goal at the end. If I could sell enough books to make the seller and the attorney whole, and we're done, like, it's a good story. And it came out in a positive way. Hey, you, title agents, stop wasting time digging for answers or waiting on an email or callback from your underwriter.

With titleGPT.ai, you get instant, reliable answers to your title questions fast. No more delays, work smarter, close faster, and keep deals moving. Try www.titleGPT.ai today. So since publishing the book, you've sparked a bigger conversation. What kind of response have you received from industry peers and clients?

Yeah, so I'm getting published in a lot of online forums and publications. Plenty of, we download. You get instant, reliable answers to your title questions, fast. No more delays, work smarter, close faster, and keep deals moving. Try www.titlegpt.ai today.

Sam, published in the book, you've sparked a bigger conversation. What kind of response have you received from industry peers and clients? Yeah, so I'm getting published in a lot of online forums and publications. Plenty of, we downloaded the list of, I didn't do nationally, I only did Florida, but I downloaded the list of every Florida licensed title agent, emailed it to them, and a ton of them bought the book. Because at the end of the day, I said, listen, it's going to be the best, you know, $25 you're ever going to spend because when it happens to you, all you have to do is open the book and here's your, here's the list of what you need to do and who you need to call.

And it opened a little consulting business for me because I offered in the book as well at the end that if you want to pay me to consult instead of paying what maybe, you know, one of these bigger companies, you want to pay me to consult with you, I'll help walk you through this process. It'll just pay me for my time a little bit, but I will help you through this process of how to file an insurance claim, who to reach out to, what to do in the process, who to, you know, find people at the receiving bank, like everything we learned, I'll walk you through the process and help you along the way to hopefully, you know, so it's not as painful for you as it was for me just as a learning lesson. So it's, we learned a big lesson. Do you see yourself continuing advocacy work or educational efforts around fraud prevention in real estate? Yeah, we do a ton of it now and I do love it.

And part of it is I'm trying to get our main underwriter that we work with to let me help them on a national level as a consultant to help educate people. But at the end of the day, if someone calls me and they want to ask me questions, I have no problem talking to people, right? I, this is a problem with the industry that we don't have the resources as small business owners. And if I can save one small business owner from going out of business because it killed their reputation and a loss of revenue because they don't have the coverage they thought they had, then it's good. If I can teach one title company to put measures in place now before it happens, avoid me, I even had someone who messaged me, her husband is an IT person and she read the book with her husband and she's a title person and he's an IT person and they learned something new just from the book.

So it's there to teach people and it's there to educate them on what to look out for when you become a victim and what measures to put in place before you become a victim because just as I thought, maybe I will never become a victim, you too can become a victim. It's very, very easy and you feel like you've been violated. And it's the worst feeling when I was sitting on pacing having to call this attorney saying, you know, your client's 275 grand is gone. And I don't know if we're ever getting it back. So what advice would you give other title professionals?

What measures would they put in place based on your learning experience? Yeah, definitely use secured email. Obviously, we do. So that wasn't an issue on our end. Education is key to the other clients along the way.

But this was a mistake. So it's educating your employees on what to look for, what to listen for. Although we do that, they still fell for it. And then as a business owner, look at your insurance policies, know your rapid response plan, which is why we wrote it. You need to have it ready to go when the issue happens.

So whether you buy my rapid response plan for $25 by buying the book or you have your own rapid response plan that you think is going to be okay, have that plan ready to deploy the second it happens. So getting close to the end of the show, I always have two final personal questions I ask. Do you have a favorite quote? I mean, I think it really comes down to like Bob Berg and Zig Ziglar would always talk about endless referrals and doing business the right way. There's no specific quote, but it's really telling you that people will do business with and refer business to people they know, like, and trust.

And you have to build them. First, they got to get to know you. Then they have to get to like you. But that trust part is something you never want to put in jeopardy. And this was proven by us.

So build that know, like, and trust with your clients and your credibility and your reputation and your integrity will survive any of these issues because people will stand behind you. Awesome. And do you have a favorite book besides Intercepted? I would say The Go-Giver. The Go-Giver, yeah, I read that years ago.

It's a very easy read. It talks about the five laws of stratospheric success. It talks about giving without the intention of receiving. So just be a giver. It talks about being open to receiving.

When people have a gift for you, you know, they want to give it to you. And just do business the right way with people. Do business like we're in this the long haul, right? So if you're a new entrepreneur listening, you know, it takes five years just to become successful. I've been at it 25 years and I'm still learning every single day.

But again, the whole moral of the story with this whole thing is your reputation, your morals, your integrity, your communication. You could do great title work. But if you fail in that, you'll never be successful. Awesome. Well, I cannot thank you enough, Kevin, for sharing your story.

And I can see the passion and the fire in your eyes. I truly appreciate your time and thank you so much. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Like I said, the story could have gone a totally different way.

So your story is what you make it and what you prepare for. So thanks for having me. And anyone that wants to reach out, I'm always happy to talk about it. Thank you. Well, to our listeners, if you haven't picked up a copy of Kevin's book, Intercepting A True Story, Wire Fraud, and the Race to Recover, you'll grab it on Amazon.

It's not just a title book, an industry book. It's a wake-up call for every real estate professional. Check the show notes for the link. And if this episode resonates with you, please subscribe, share with your team, and leave us a review, hopefully a five-star review. This is how we raise the bar across the industry together.

Thank you so much. And that's a wrap on today's journey with Mo Shamil from the Title Agents podcast, reminding you that mastering the art of innovation is key in the title industry's fast-paced world. If you're finding it tough to keep up with the changes and challenges, remember, you're not alone. Our calendar is open for you. Find the link in the show notes and let's connect.

Make sure to hit subscribe to not miss out on strategies that elevate and insights that empower. Together, we'll navigate the future of the industry. I look forward to our next meeting in the upcoming episode.