How to Start Investing in Real Estate as a Title Agent | Ep43

In a world where change is the only constant, Mo Shumil stands at the forefront, guiding title professionals to not just grow their businesses, but to master the art of innovation. With every episode, you're handed the keys to unlock unparalleled growth and stay ahead of the curve. Get ready for a transformative journey. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Title Aces podcast. I am your host, Mo Shumil, CEO of Alltech National Title.

I have a huge favor to ask. I would love for you to give us a review on your favorite podcast app or on our YouTube channel. And that would mean a lot to me and to the podcast. Today I will be interviewing Phil Muller from the Muller Real Estate and Business Podcast. Phil interviewed some of the sharpest minds in the industry.

And today we're flipping the mic to get his take on what's shaping the future of real estate and how to build a lasting business and the lessons learned along the way. Let's jump in. Well, welcome, Phil. Can you please share with us your background and your story? Yeah, Mo, first, thanks for having me on.

Yeah, Phil Muller from Ohio, as we said, married to my wife, Marcia, for 17 years. We have five kids ages 5 to 13 or 5 to 14. Jeez, I'm going to go fast. So I am busy with kids and trying to keep track of everything. And my wife really, she does the legwork there, Mo, I have to tell you that.

But so that's a little bit about me personally, professionally. I went to school, grew up in an entrepreneurial family, went to school for engineering, did that for several years, kind of doing the corporate path, you know, gross thing, and just had this urge in 2013 to do something entrepreneurial, had been reading and studying about real estate and even thinking about acting for a couple of years. But I just procrastinated and overthought it, you know, engineering mind, but pulled the trigger. What got me over the really the hump was my wife was a hairstylist and she would work, you know, nights and then Saturday mornings as well. And we had recently had our first child and I'm like, we have to, like, I at least have to start to get out of this in some way, shape or form.

So we started buying houses in 2013 with the goal to, okay, we can replace her Saturday mornings and then we can replace her Thursday evenings and then maybe Tuesday evenings and getting her time and evenings and weekends with me and with the family. And then over time, it continues to grow from there. So that's, that was the first inspiration was really help my wife work less as we were having kids and starting our family. And you know, over the course of time, it just evolved. So a perfect time in to start buying houses like 2012, 2013.

Also very good timing. And what's interesting is when I was, I started looking in 2011 and 2011, 12, 13, and guess what? Nothing looked good. Like in my mind at that time, it was like, man, this is all risky. This is what am I going to do?

But certainly looking back, it was a great time to start investing in real estate. You know, there was a good eight, 10 year run, run for real estate for sure there. So, um, yeah, it was, it was, we were very fortunate and blessed in that way for sure. Awesome. So what, uh, what led you to launch your podcast?

So for my podcast, so, um, 2013 to 2017, we bought a single family, 2017 to 2021. We were buying multifamily. That's when I left my W2 ultimately. And then 2021 to 2024, um, I was doing some investing our own deals. I was doing a lot of passive investing, but I was really looking for, okay, I I've gotten myself to a good spot financially, you know, we've been very fortunate, very blessed.

And how can I like, what's next? How can I, um, you know, serve others? Maybe there's some marketing strategy to it, but really how can I bring value to others? Because what, what really gets that to my, gets to me at my core Mo is when I see people with so much potential, and I think there's so many people with so much potential that aren't going after it, right? They're not, they don't have the courage to bet on themselves to become who they really are.

And that's what just, it irritates me. And I want to help those people get over the hump to say, you know what? No, you, you can do more. You need to bet on yourself. Let's go after this.

So launching the pad podcast was my way of hopefully, hopefully getting that message out a little bit more. And I'll tell you, it was hard. I mean, I go back to, um, the first single family house, or when I bought my first apartment, like you really have to have your why behind, you want to do something to get over it, over the hump. And I wanted to do this to try to nudge other people to do it. But I was hesitating.

I was, you know, holding back. I didn't have the courage to take the leap because I was worried, what are people going to think of me? Do I, you know, do I know enough? Am I good enough to, to have this platform, all those limiting beliefs that we all have in different ways were coming about for my, myself, um, as I launched the podcast. But once I did it, then I was like, guess what?

None of those. It's a, it was okay. I didn't get, you know, it was okay. I mean, yeah, I think it's hopefully having a positive impact on people. Yeah.

I know the, the power of why is literally the foundation and the key to everything in life. Can you elaborate more and, and the why and why is it so meaningful and foundational? I can, any purpose in life, actually any journey in life. This podcast is brought to you by struggling to set appointments and generate leads. What if you had a team working behind the scenes to help you book more meetings and close more deals at all tech national title, our dedicated inside sales team, help you find your pipeline so you can focus on what you do best, building relationships and closing business.

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So first of all, I think it is extremely important and I think it can evolve over time as well. So I talked about in 2013, my initial why was help my wife to work less to be around her family. And then eventually it changed. Okay. Maybe she doesn't need to work at all.

And then it became, well, she isn't working as a hairstylist anymore, but she's working a lot in the real estate business. So can I, can I replace that? And then it's, you know, I started to see home and maybe I could not have to work anymore. And then it became, well, if I didn't work anymore, what's the impact I could have? What else could I do in what different ways?

So the why is always the driver. And if we don't have that and we don't have clarity of that, then, um, I think it just, it's going to be harder to have the courage to take action. So I, I think combining first getting clarity of your purpose and like the acronym I use are what, like what I'm building out is what I call the purpose matrix, but the acronym I use is peace, purpose, education, association, courage, and example. It starts with getting clear on your purpose and your mission and what you think that is. It doesn't need to be crystal clear to you, but think about it.

Be aware of what you think it is and move in that direction and know that you're a lot of times you're moving and you might be going through fog, but there will be more clarity on the other side. But if you think, you know, what your professional purpose is or what your family purpose is or what your health purpose is or faith or whatever it is for you, move in that direction. And as you move in that direction, you'll get more and more clarity and you'll redirect because as Steve Jobs says, you can't connect the dots forward, but you can connect the dots backwards. So start moving in the direction and you'll get more clarity. But here's what I'll say is if you think about it, but you don't act upon it, you're not going to get more clarity.

So that's where get clarity on what it is, educate yourself and grow your mindset through education associations, and then have the courage to act. I think is, is why the, the acronym and the process works well together because you can't just think about it. You got to educate yourself and you got to pursue it. Awesome. What was one of the biggest surprises you encountered early on as an entrepreneur in the real safe space?

You know, I think, um, I think the biggest surprise for me was that if you really focus on something and puts your heart into it and your mind into it, you can be really successful. So I, you know, I just didn't probably have the confidence early on that I, that I could be successful in this, or as I didn't, I certainly didn't see where I am now at that time. And I just think if what's, what's surprising to me was the level of success, maybe we were able to have, because I, I just didn't have that context. Like I just didn't even see where I didn't, I couldn't see this far back then. Right.

So as I did more, I continued to grow the confidence that, okay, I can do this. I do belong what I'm here, what I'm doing. And I just, I kept moving forward because of it. the surprises that anybody, not this isn't me, but I think anybody can be successful if they put their, their effort and energy into something even just as simple. So I thank everybody for listening today.

And I will see you next time on anybody that asks. but I just didn't have that context. Like I just didn't even see where I didn't, I couldn't see this far back then, right? So as I did more, I continued to grow the confidence that, okay, I can do this. I do belong what I'm here, what I'm doing.

And I just, I kept moving forward because of it. So I think the surprise is that anybody, not this isn't me, but I think anybody can be successful if they put their effort and energy into something, especially if they're really on a mission and have a clear why. Have you had any mentors or pivotal moments that really shaped your business philosophy? I've had a lot. In the corporate world, I had a lot of leadership mentors.

I'd say who really stands out is a gentleman by the name of Tim Kite and then Brian Kite. They founded a leadership business called Focus 3, but Tim Kite was, he studied under John Wooden at UCLA years ago in the seventies. And he was our leadership coach in the corporate world, when I was in the corporate world. And he had this simple message, it's called the R factor, but it's event plus response equals outcome. We don't control the events in life, we only control our response.

And then the outcome is a by-product of the two, but we don't completely control the outcome either. So we just have to focus on our response and in what we do, and then kind of block out all the noise around us, what's called, all the worldly things and noise around us. So, and then just leadership, create the culture that drive the behavior that gets results is another thing. And just the mindset around leadership and the importance of it. He was very, very impactful on me, holistically, not just real estate.

I've been part of networking group, we're part of a networking group together, mastermind group that's had a profound impact, a lot of different mentors within that. Yeah, just a lot of great people that have impacted me in a lot of great ways. Awesome. So real estate is constantly evolving and what are some of the biggest shifts you've seen or noticed in the market over the past decade when you started investing in real estate? Well, yeah, we talked about it a little bit.

So from 2011, 12 through 2021 timeframe, let's say, just really strong growth, low interest rate environment and rising rents, like just a phenomenal time to be in holding real estate and then challenges in a lot of places over the last couple of years. So I think the biggest shift is just ensuring that you're not, the shift has been supply demand to the construction, like, so what's going on in the construction, especially, this is a little bit dependent on markets, right, so like, you know, the Southwest, the Southeast, major, major, they have growth in a lot of places like Texas and Florida, but major construction and just ensuring that as you evaluate or underwrite deals that they work well and they can work in today's environment and you're not betting on something that's coming. I'm in some past investments that are, you know, they're a real challenge. Fortunately, in the Midwest, I think the other message is all real estate is, there's markets, but it's also local. So in the Midwest, Ramat, it's just been more slow and steady growth.

So it hasn't gone through the roof, it's grown, but certainly the crash or the other side hasn't gone down as, we're just slower in the Midwest, Mo. We just move slower. We just, you know, the market's a little bit slower and steadier, but- I personally prefer that. You know what? I personally like the slow and steady versus the hyper ups and downs, which is kind of just not, it's insane.

And I, because of some passive deals that I'm in in other markets, I've grown to really appreciate the slow and steady path as well. And, you know, there's people that made a lot of money really, really fast, but they've also, there's also unfortunately a lot of people that are losing a lot of money really, really fast. So just knowing the markets you're in and knowing them well, and whether that's you're a real estate agent, a title agent or an investor, knowing your markets and being just knowledgeable, I think can help you in your business and serve your clients really, really well. Yep. This podcast is made possible by our sponsor.

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So what are some piece of advice you would give to title agents or real estate professionals, real estate investors trying to stay competitive in today's environment besides being hyper-local, I guess, is one of the things you'd focus on? I think, you know, Mo, I think you're doing it now, which is serve others, especially if the market's a little bit slower. If you're, you know, if you're serving others, if you're helping others, if you have an abundance mindset where, hey, maybe we'll compete here and there, but like, if I can just be a good title agent or if I work well with the real estate agents or whomever and serve them and support them, long-term, that always works out, right? It might not work out in a really short term. There's a book, The Go-Giver by Bob Berg, where it's actually a sales book, but if you just serve enough others, if you give to others without an expectation to get something back, but if you do it for the right reasons, it will come back in spades at some point in time and in some way, shape, or form.

So I think just serving others and in the industry, I think, you know, project management and organization skills are super important to keep things together as you're working on tight deadlines and closing dates and things like that, as you know. Yeah. So how do you personally keep learning and evolving in a fast-paced industry? And especially with the latest super kind of hyper growth in AI and automation and... Oh, yeah.

So first, I think education and association, as I said, are so, so critical. And, you know, I'm always looking for different ways to learn and grow from others, through books, through, you know, whether it's, I like really, really old books and I like, you know, checking out some new books that are impactful. So I think there's mindset. I love mindset, leadership, faith, spirituality. I'm getting into that more and more, but there's also your industry, your niche, technology, and learning that.

So like our team, for example, we use different software platforms, whether that's QuickBooks, AppFolio, and then these different, like AppFolio is, you know, this is big software company that's investing in AI. But as our small team, we have here, we're also saying, hey, we need to continuous learn, continuously learn AI ourselves. And we don't have to solve it all right now, but let's start just using AI as a tool so that as it grows, we're growing with it and we're not left in the dark completely. So I think it depends on the team members and how tech savvy you are maybe, but certainly it's coming and just being a part of that and trying to understand it, I think is important. So we're just trying to use it wherever we can.

I'm trying to ask my team, like, hey, did you ask AI about this or that, you know, whatever, for whatever that is. So what do you see automation, including AI, having the most impact in real estate or title space in the next three to five years? If you have a crystal ball. Yeah. You know, I think the title space might be more challenging for me to answer, but I think if there's big software companies or software platforms that people are using, those companies are gonna be investing in AI and replacing, you know, the basic tasks for sure.

So like, I'll just use a property management software as an example, Appfolio, but there's gonna be more and more dialogue with residents that are, if it's very tactical dialogue, that's gonna happen for us, right? And I'm part of our differentiator is we answer the phone and we call people back and we are on top of it. So we're trying to balance, right, right. Brand new concept that's, yeah. But we're very cautious of how do we leverage technology but not lose that, right?

So we're thinking about that and we're cautious of using it too much because we're trying to change how, from a property management and ownership perspective, how that's done, where we can really connect with and impact the residents. You know, residents and tenants, whatever you wanna call it, they have, there's such this negative perception sometimes, like tenants, toilets and taxes from real estate investors. Well, we're trying to flip that and say, how do we really, you know, just look out for them and impact them in some way, shape or form, you know, if we can. And we haven't figured that out yet, but long story short, we wanna stick to the. and ownership perspective, how that's done, where we can really connect with and impact the residents.

Residents and tenants, whatever you want to call it, they have, there's such this negative perception sometimes, like tenants, toilets and taxes from real estate investors. Well, we're trying to flip that and say, how do we really just look out for them and impact them in some way, shape or form, if we can. And we haven't figured that out yet, but long story short, we want to stick to the fundamentals. We want to, if we answer the phone, if we're organized, if we communicate well, we're going to have better rent collections. We're going to have better retention.

Just like as a title agent, you're going to close more deals. You're going to get more referrals by doing those foundational things. But how do you bring technology in to support that and make it better without losing that personal touch is the challenge, I think. So from your experience and the guests you've interviewed in your podcast, what separates the good entrepreneur from the truly great ones in business or in real estate specifically? Yeah, I think it's someone that's on a mission.

I mean, I think it's someone that's clear as to what they're trying to do and why they're trying to do it. You know, we have, because of that, we really built three things, three reasons we are in business. One is we want to have a team that wins together, okay? The second one is we want to impact everybody that we touch in a positive way. If that's residents, if that's the contractors we work with, if that's our investors, if that's our team members, we want to have an impact.

And then the third thing is we want to have financial success and we want to donate a lot. I mean, our goal is to donate a lot as a team. We want to share with the team what causes we're a part of so that they can see the impact they're having, not just with the people they touch directly, but also as an organization, if we do well, we can also have an impact on different organizations that are in more need than we are. So those are the three pillars of kind of our mission and what we're trying to do. And what I would say is, so like we're a real estate company, but really our mission is to leverage real estate to do good in many ways.

And if we stay focused on that, I will stay energized, I will stay engaged, the team will stay engaged and we'll be more successful because of it. So I think people and entrepreneurs that are clear in what they're doing and why they're doing it can be a major differentiator. Awesome. How do you foster creativity and innovation in your business or content strategy with your podcast and blogs and social media? Man, Mo, that's a tough one because I don't know, and I don't know if this is a bad thing, but I don't know how creative, I wouldn't call myself creative.

I think I'm a, well, I try to be a deep thinker. I don't know if I'm successful at it, but I guess I'll use the AI example, like, hey, we just have to go try new things. And really maybe it's a mindset of gross and we just watched a leadership video as a team together, but it's like, if we fail or if we fall, fall forward, try new things. If you fail, look at it as a lesson, not as a failure, and just keep trying new things. And I mean, for example, right now, we haven't hired VAs yet.

I know a lot of people have done that. We're gonna hire a VA. I hope it's extremely successful, but if it's not, we're gonna learn through that process and we're gonna get clarity as to how we're gonna manage that in the future. So I think just trying new things and recognizing the main benefit often is the lessons you learn, not the direct benefit you get from it. We can definitely talk offline about VAs.

We've been using VAs for the last 10 years plus, so we're big advocates. All right, I will take you up on that. I appreciate it. Are there any big bets or pioneering ideas you think more professionals in real estate should be exploring right now? This podcast is proudly sponsored by.

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But what we're trying to figure out is, how do we really, and I'm sincere about this, because we haven't figured this out. How do we impact everybody that we touch? And like residents, how do, you know, we launched a financial education course for all of our residents two weeks ago where they had to sign up $100 to take the class with somebody. And if they finish the class, we will pay for the whole class. If they don't finish it, it's out of their pocket.

But if they finish it, it's for them. You know, we had very few people that registered. I would call it, like, was it successful? I don't know. But we're going to try things and try to figure out, can we impact them from a faith, family, finance, health?

How can we do that? And the only way we can do it is if we really create trust with them that hasn't been done in general in the industry. So we're trying to figure that out. And we are just scratching the surface. I'm excited for what that looks like five or 10 years from now, but I don't know how to do it yet.

So we just got to keep trying things and moving in that direction. So I think if you can figure out how to serve your customers or whoever you work with in some way, shape, or form, that, you know, you're going to be successful, whether it's monetarily or not. Probably monetarily, that might take some time, but you're going to be successful and you're going to feel good about what you're doing. So let's shift gears to the podcast and brand or personal brand. What's a powerful way to build a personal brand that has a podcast and talks to you about communication and connection in business?

So, first of all, I talked about personal brand to my corporate team for the last five or 10 years because you're always building it. So I think it's really, really important that you're always building your personal brand. So how you present yourself, how you carry yourself, how you communicate to others. So if you're, you know, how you get things done, all those things, like a lot of character traits, you're always building your personal brand. So that's in your own world and that's not this strategic online brand.

That's like your personal brand and who you are. You're always building that. So that's my first message. You know, from a personal branding strategy in the podcast, and I would say, first of all, I've learned so much myself from the podcast, right? I just, I'm having conversations and I'm trying to, you know, I'm bringing on great guests that have a lot of experience in different industries, different paths that they've taken to be successful.

And I'm learning so much and I'm just, I'm trying to be curious in the discussions. But I'm still trying to figure out what that all means and the strategic approach to that, you know, posting on social media is not the most comfortable thing, but we're doing that stuff. And I don't know, I'm not your branding expert, Mo, honestly, I'm trying to figure it out. I'm hiring people, recognizing what I'm good at and what I'm not. I would say that I think I have a strong personal brand and I think it's because I'm focusing on me and who I am and what I do.

And the strategy and tactics are certainly an element of scaling that. But the first thing is you gotta be or become or do what you want that brand to be, which is really your most, I think, authentic self. You gotta define who you are and who you want to be. And if you do that and be that person, your brand will grow. And then if you wanna scale it, it gets into the marketing strategy and tactics and other stuff.

Any memorable guests or conversations that really changed your perspective or pushed you to think differently? I think I'll go back because I said it already. So it'd be easier to connect maybe for your listeners, but Tim Kite, I interviewed him. I think it was March or April. I interviewed him in February of 2024.

He had stage four cancer. He knew he was probably, he was nearing the end of the road and he passed away two or three months later, unfortunately. And he had a big impact on me already. I had just a lot of trust and credibility with him. I was really dialed in, really listening.

And I think it was after the show, he said, Phil, I'm physically breaking down, but I'm mentally and spiritually stronger than I've ever been. And I thought that was a profound message about his ability to disconnect from the worldly things and even physically how he was doing and be so strong emotionally, spiritually, and mentally was really impactful for me. So I'm like, okay, this person has been working on himself for 40, 50. He said, you know, Phil, I'm physically breaking down, but I'm mentally and spiritually stronger than I've ever been. And I thought that was a profound message about, um, you know, his ability to disconnect from the worldly things and even physically how he was doing and be so strong emotionally, spiritually, and mentally was really impactful for me.

So I'm like, okay, this person has been working on himself for 40, 50 years, right? Because John Wooden at UCLA was in the 1970s, he's been working on himself for 50 years. And the outcome of that has been such strong conviction, um, in, in many ways. So that was, that was pretty neat. And that has stuck with me for, you know, over a year now.

What's that one habit habit that keeps you grounded as an entrepreneur? Um, but big, big believer in habits, the power of habits. Yeah. No, same, same. And I have a tracker and all this, right.

All this stuff, Mo that we probably do. But I'd say, first of all, um, having a good morning routine, I think is so important, just, um, working out, uh, what sauna reflection, silence, prayer, uh, whatever it is for you. I, I, I like to go on a, we try to go when it's, when the weather is acceptable, in Ohio mode today, it was not acceptable. You're talking 30 mile an hour winds, sideways rain. So my wife and I did not go on a walk this morning, but we try to go on a walk three, four times a week, um, before the kids are up.

And I'd say, um, I don't know. I think kids are pretty humbling. I think I have my stuff together sometimes then all of a sudden chaos and heavily hits and, uh, you know, I think that humbles me a lot. So I would say, I would say that. And, um, yeah, those would be, those would be some of the items, but habits.

I think, I think if, if you have a morning routine and you win the day by 7.00 AM or 7.30, or whatever time that is for you, you've won the day. And then everything else just is, is onward and upward from there. So I think it's important to win the day. You feel you just get yourself in a great state of mind and, uh, you can tackle anything. Um, if you had to start all over again in real estate today, what's the first thing you would do?

What's the first thing you would do? Today's episode is sponsored by. Hey, you title agents, stop wasting time digging for answers or waiting on an email or call back from your underwriter with title GPT dot AI, you get instant, reliable answers to your title questions fast, no more delays, work smarter, close faster, and keep deals moving. Try www.titleGPT.ai today. I would connect like crazy and network like crazy with, uh, you know, influential people in the market I want to be in.

So if that's real estate agents, if that's owners, whoever that is, but I would just network like crazy and educate myself, and then I would take a little bit different path where I don't regret. I don't regret any, anything I've done because there's, I think things happen for a reason, but I stayed in a single family space for a long time. I'd probably go single family and, you know, from a one to a two to a four to an eight and I shift to multifamily a little bit sooner, but you know, I wasn't probably ready for that when I started. So, um, yeah, just because of the confidence and the conviction and, you know, I'd have more courage early on to take action a little bit faster, but again, I don't regret where I'm at. I'm, we've been super blessed.

So what, uh, advice would you give to real estate agents or title agents, uh, to invest or start investing in real estate and build wealth? Cause a lot, a lot of them kind of, um, they don't believe that they can, that they may say, Hey, I don't have money. I don't know how to start. I don't want to cause an overwhelming. Yeah.

It's a lot of deals. They come and go through their, to their hands. They either refer from somebody else or, or literally just don't believe they can do it. You can partner with somebody else that can do that deal and start building that wealth. And it's, uh, somebody said this a long time ago and I'd be in a real estate.

It's like insider training, real estate. A lot of times the deals go through your hands. You know, you know, the markets, you know, the area having that knowledge, you know, it's a great deal. You should jump on it's good that you have the money or not. Just figure out the way how to do it.

I think, I think real estate agents, title agents have a huge competitive advantage to be able to become successful real estate investors. So a couple of things, one, I would recognize what I'm good at and what I'm maybe not good at, and then try to identify people that are good at the things I'm not. Um, so I would, I would just realize that. And the second thing is. I can empathize with, with anyone in that situation.

Cause that was me in 2011 and 2012. So when I, before I bought my first single family home, I procrastinated like crazy. I thought about every single situation that might go wrong. I created them all in my head. None of them happened, but what I would say is look at the best thing that can happen and the worst thing that can happen.

And on my first deal, I said, the worst thing that can happen is, you know, maybe first of all, could I get sued or something happened? Okay. That's why I put insurance in place and do the right things, but maybe the market will turn or maybe I'll negative cashflow and lose a hundred or $200 a month, or maybe 10,000 or 15,000 on the deal. But I can generally quantify the worst things that could happen to me. Right.

And they weren't that bad. They seem bad, but there weren't that bad. What I thought was the best thing that could happen at the time was maybe I'll cashflow to two, $300 on that first deal, or maybe in five years it'll be worse. Um, you know, 80 or 90 or a hundred thousand dollars. Well, the bet, what I just said did happen the better side of it, but that wasn't the best thing that happened.

The best thing that happened was I invested in the first deal. I learned a ton about real estate, about managing properties. And more importantly, I built the confidence and conviction that I can go do this again and again and again. So I waited two or three years to buy the first one. And then I waited two or three months to buy the second one and then two or three months to buy the next one.

So frame risk as the worst thing and the best thing, but recognize that the best thing that can happen is often not the tangible outcome of it, but it's really the lessons you learn, the confidence you get from that. So I would just say, understand the downside. Don't be silly about taking a massive risk and buying your first deal is a hundred unit property and you lose a lot of people's money. No, I'm not saying that, but if you understand the risk and the downside, just recognize the upside is way more impactful. And if I didn't buy that first deal, no, we wouldn't be on this call today.

Right. So, um, I think how you frame risk and upside is important. Um, and then if, if it, if it makes sense, take the leap. And, uh, even the worst case scenario, you mentioned be like negative cashflow, a hundred to a hundred. So you make a mistake and worst case scenario happens where you sell the property, you tend 20, 30,000, like a negative, the tax law kind of benefits you, but having that writing up that law.

So it's money didn't make it. Can they kind of offset the tax? Oh, I look back. It's a win, win, win, win in a way. It was ridiculous.

I mean, it really was ridiculous. Um, yeah. And if the worst thing would happen, what would it mean? It wasn't going to even impact our lifestyles. Like, okay, that was have the mindset that you, if you do fail, fail forward, as I said earlier in the discussion.

Um, and even if the worst thing happens, you're going to say. This didn't go well. I learned from it, but I can see how this might work. I'm going to go do it again. I mean, you're going to, even if it doesn't go well, you're going to go do it again, because real estate, there's just a lot of different ways, um, and benefits to make money, what taxes, one of them, but a lot of other ways too.

So I would encourage people if it's on their heart and they want to do it. Um, it's, it's, it's time to take that jump. Cause we're coming close to the, to the end here. Do you have a favorite quote? Um, you know, I was, so first of all, I, I was thinking about that, that my favorite quote, I have it on my wall is the Teddy Roosevelt, the man in the arena.

It's a long quote, but basically it says it's not the critic who counts. So I think you're nodding. Like, you know, it, I can read the whole thing, but it's just, it's really. Don't worry about what other people think about you there. If they're not in the arena, they're going to be a critic, but be in the arena, get clear on what you want and pursue it, um, is, is kind of my summary of that.

So, um, I love that quote. I've, I've loved it great for a long, long time. There are many others, but, but that would be my favorite. And I think it's probably because I, you know, because of my conservative nature, uh, you know, I need to convince myself to have the courage to act. So that's why it resonates with me so much.

Uh, how about a favorite book or book you've read recently? Yeah, I would say, um, you know, I mentioned John Wooden. I mentioned, um, uh, so I would say John Wooden, Atomic Habits, Man's Search for Meaning, um, Viktor Frankl, Auschwitz, uh, Concentration Camp, just a profound story and really a story of survival. And the reason he survived is because he had a clear mission and purpose is what he attributes that to. They're making a movie out of it.

I think they're 20 minutes. Is the producer, I guess. Oh, wow. I, I, I have to watch for that because yeah, that, that's a book that I just try to go back and look through my notes every, every year and just kind of reflect and, um, take a look at it. So that's a really profound, profound, um, book that's had a big impact on me.

Well, thank you so much, Phil, for your time. That was a tons of wisdom and, uh, I can't wait to talk to you very soon again. Awesome, man. Thanks so much. is what he attributes that to.

They're making a movie out of it, I think they're 20 minutes. Are they really? He's a producer, I guess, yeah. Oh, wow, I have to watch for that, because yeah, that's a book that I just try to go back and look through my notes every year and just kind of reflect and take a look at it. So that's a really profound, profound book that's had a big impact on me.

Well, thank you so much, Phil, for your time. That was tons of wisdom, and I can't wait to talk to you very soon again. Awesome, Mo, thanks so much. So big, big, big thanks to Phil for joining us today. Great insights on entrepreneurship, real estate, and leadership.

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