How to Sell Without Being Pushy in Title | Title Agents Podcast Ep4

Services, once they've already walked in the door, I'm going to hook you up and I'm going to take care of you. Sales is the invitation and proactive outreach to bring them in. That's why I believe every job is a sales job, because I believe that everyone's job to make sure everyone you encounter knows you are welcome here, we want to see you. In a world where change is the only constant, Mo Shamil stands at the forefront, guiding title professionals to not just grow their businesses, but to master the art of innovation. With every episode, you're handed the keys to unlock unparalleled growth and stay ahead of the curve.

Get ready for a transformative journey. All right, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Title Agents Podcast. Today, I have a pleasure to have my good friend and sales coach, Dr. Cindy McGovern.

Here's a little bio about our First Lady of Sales. Dr. Cindy McGovern, known across the globe as the First Lady of Sales. She's an expert in sales, leadership, and communication. Author of the Wall Street Journal bestseller, Every Job is a Sales Job.

How to use the art of selling to win at work, and a CEO of Orange Leap Consulting. She's earned her reputation by leading hundreds of companies to business growth and industry dominance. She helps take the ick out of sales, and empowers people to embrace their inner five-year-old to use the art of selling to achieve their personal and professional goal. Welcome, Dr. Cindy.

Thank you, Mo. It's good to see you. Good to see you. Before we start, I always ask this question. Love to know your story, your background.

I know you're a Southern girl, live in California. So, your background, where you grew up, where you went to school, that kind of, how you got into title, specifically. Well, obviously, I was dressing as a title examiner for Halloween when I was a child, as we all do in this industry. So, you know, naturally. I went to grad school at Florida State, got my PhD in communication, was a college professor.

Long story short, went into consulting, got into a consulting job and was put into a sales role. About six months in, thought, oh my gosh, this is not going to be for me. I don't know what I'm doing. Turns out, sales was my path. And I realized I had to kind of change the way that we look at sales to help people to be able to grow their business.

So, that's why the first book is Every Job Is A Sales Job. So, that led me to start my own company. At this time, it's 16 years ago, and started largely consulting to help title agents to crawl out of the bottom of the market at the end of 2008. We all remember that. Fun days.

Yeah. How did you get into title? I mean, it's very niche. If I'm not mistaken, only a couple of people, a couple of sales coaches in the industry, you and Daryl, if I don't know anybody else. So, it's very, very niche-y.

It is. I was working for a company that did some corporate training in the title space, mainly for direct operations. And I loved the independent agent. I always loved them. Nothing against direct ops.

We work with them, too. But I saw that there was such passion in this industry around running your business. And they were so good at the title part. But so many of them didn't have any other business expertise. And I went, wait a minute.

We can help with that. We can help with the business and the sales side. They bring their talent and title. That's a really nice marriage. So, I literally quit my job at the end of 2008 to start a company to help title agents that didn't have any money at the time.

I believe we were one of your first clients, if I'm not mistaken. One of our very first clients. I had chased you for a little while. And I remember the day I was actually skiing when your text came in. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I have to call this person right now.

It's been a great journey with you. Like, you know, I'm a big believer in coaches. I really would love to relay that message to all the title agents and title professionals. I have multiple coaches, you know. And I'm always, always learning to want to get better and grow.

So, and I highly recommend all of you to really use coaches. Yeah, I'm with you. You know, I'm a firm believer in that too. I have two of my very own coaches. And people often say, wait a minute, you are a coach.

I'm like, yeah, but you can't do your own brain surgery. We all need that. So, I am a big believer in coaches as well. One of the, literally the majority of the title agents and title professionals stumble into the industry. Like, I was recruited out of a bar in two different aspects.

So, most of us, if not all of us, do not have professional sales training. And we just stumble into it and kind of that naivety, that whatever, I mean, you kind of, the hard work grits, you become successful. What's the best advice can you give or best way to, for title agents to retool their skills and sharpen their skills to become a professional salespeople and compete in this market? So, great question. I love this question because I think that this industry is uniquely positioned for this more than some because we do have that grit and we do have that passion.

You don't get into this industry and stay here because it's easy. You get in here and you stay because you love it. You love the transactional challenge. You love helping people. And truly, sales is helping.

If you really look at it at its most fundamental level, sales is about helping somebody else get something that they want. And once you take that ick out of sales, that it's not pushy, it's not manipulative, it's not cheesy, it's not slick and fast talking, it's you have a need, I'm gonna see if I can solve that need for you. And I really do genuinely care about your success and making this happen for you. That's the definition of sales. And I think if we can get past some of those stigmas of it and retool to really empower every single person on your team to use, quite frankly, the passion they joined this organization with anyways, you really can excel in this market.

And there's so much opportunity. I know you're big on consultative selling. Can you dive a little deeper into what's consultative selling and how can people learn more about it? So I believe that consultative selling is kind of like the word consult. I'm supposed to figure out what it is you need.

And if I have a solution, I can help you. And if I don't have a solution, I'm willing to walk away. You and I have had this conversation too. It's like, I can help with this. I can't help with that, great.

But it's truly consulting the other person where I think the mistake that a lot of, even seasoned sales pros make is they go in with the features, advantages, and benefits. Let me tell you all about all the stuff. I don't care about that until I know you care about me and you care about my success. So it's being inquisitive. And it's like the old Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross always be closing.

I don't believe in that. I think it's always be curious. Be curious about what the other person needs, how you might be able to solve that. That to me is the definition of consultative sales. Awesome, and the sales industry is continuously shifting.

How can title professionals adapt their sales and marketing strategies to keep pace with these changes? I have two answers to that question. Okay. Number one is stop watching just the competition. And I think it's important to know your competition.

I think it's absolutely important to kind of keep your eye that peripheral vision. But so often what I see in this industry is you almost abandon your own sales strategy playing cat and mouse with the competition. They do this, then you do this. The other guy does this, then you do this. Now, be true to who you are.

Stay the course, watch them. It's an idea, maybe you do it, but don't get derailed by that. And then the second thing is it's about following the curiosity and the passion. It's literally about figuring out what's next. How do we stay just ahead of the headlights to make sure we're delivering on the needs of our clients?

And that's where the psychology comes in. That's everything we do is based in human behavior research. You know this, we're a bunch of nerds over here and we love it. But it's understanding buying behavior and how that's changing. And so even if you look at the industry, not to jump ahead, I'm sure we'll talk about this at some point, but AI and technology, watching why that is even happening.

It's like, we don't go and rent movies anymore. We get them on our phone now. How are we evolving to service the client? That's sales. That's awesome.

What emerging trends do you see influencing sales and marketing strategies? And how can businesses leverage these trends to their advantage? Oh, good one. Well, technology is a big one, obviously, with AI and introduction of AI. About 10 years ago, it was social media.

Everybody was changing and everybody's getting on a social media bandwagon. But again, I think it's about recognizing you meet the client where they are. And we are in such a mobile world now with Ron and all these other things, like this is where we're headed. But it's how you tell a story around that. And I think this is where some people, here comes the unsolicited coaching listeners, here you go, is you've got to tell it in a way that it matters to them.

Nobody cares that you can do remote online notary. Nobody cares that you have AI until I realize how it impacts me and it makes my life easier and my job easier and helps me service my customer better. And so those trends, it's coming. It's already here. But it's how you're using that trend to tell a different story, I think, is where the sales strategy comes in.

Yeah, at the end of the day, like technology and AI, it's simply a tool. The sales fundamentals don't change. The sales process does not change. No, and I think that's where, I always hear this with companies too, like, well, if we just got a CRM, our sales would be organized. No, it won't.

No, it won't. It's a tool. That's all that is. It's built to support your sales strategy, to support your sales process. So I invite everybody that's listening and watching, like pay attention to your sales strategy.

And if it needs a refresh, if it needs a rebrand, do that now and then find the tools that support the execution of that strategy. Because that's what really all the technology is out there for. It's just to support you. For those that are not familiar with a sales process, or can you, like, what's your philosophy? There's some, at the end of the day, it's all the same sales process, but different versions of it for different.

sales strategy, to support your sales process. So I invite everybody that's listening and watching, like pay attention to your sales strategy. And if it needs a refresh, if it needs a rebrand, do that now and then find the tools that support the execution of that strategy. Cause that's what really all the technology's out there for. It's just to support you.

For those that are not familiar with a sales process, or can you like, what's your philosophy? There's a, at the end of the day, it's all same sales process, but different versions of it for different sales gurus and sales coaches. What's your definition of the sales process with the fundamental steps in a process? So I have a five-step process that I teach, but at the most fundamental level, it's talk to people who don't give you money now and get them to give you money. That's sales process.

How to get there. How to get there. So I teach five steps. And the first one is having a really good plan. You've got to have a plan of execution, a plan of path to get in front of these people, but also just your goals of what you want to accomplish.

What's your sales funnel, as it's often called. Second thing is finding the right opportunity. Look for the opportunity. Once you have that plan, you start to see the chance to connect with new people, to get clear on your targets, to know how to reach them, where to reach them, and how to have a conversation. Third thing is establish trust.

No sale happens without trust. For everybody listening and watching, that is the most often skipped step, funny enough. And it lengthens the sales cycle if you're not careful, because I'm not going to buy anything from you. You're not going to buy anything from me until we have a level of trust that's there. So it's finding ways to show them you're going to follow through.

It's going to be good for them. You have their best interest at heart. Then you got to ask. You got to ask for the business. And that's the other most often skipped step, especially in the title business, because we give great service, but that's the expectation.

Invite them back in. Invite them to send you a referral. Invite them to lead you a review. Ask. And then last, but certainly not least, is following up with gratitude.

And that's where you really turn your raving fans into referrals. And you stay top of mind with the people that you've been able to work with. I know you're big on blueprints, with the 90-day blueprints, one of your famous tools. I don't know if it's something you want to share with the audience. And it's a great map to map out every 90 days at a time.

Can you touch on that? Oh, for sure. So I am a planner, a hyper planner. I'm the to-do list gal. But when we're coaching with our clients, we use what we call the Orangely Blueprint, which is an Excel workbook.

And the first tab is those goals. It's mapping out that sales funnel, mapping out what you want to accomplish, activity and result, and then committing to that. And then the second tab is targets, the people who aren't giving you business or maybe they're cheaters. And then the third tab is the ones that really you need to leverage. And so when you start looking at that as a sales planning tool, which is really what it is, it dictates where you spend your time.

Because once you've seen it all on paper and you're tracking those behaviors, and I can see that I've reached out to Motion Meal seven times in the last 14 weeks. And I can see that in there. The little, like a poor man's CRM, if you will. But it is a snapshot. And even for me as a salesperson, like we have a CRM, we use one.

I still use a Blueprint though, because I like to see it all in one spot. I can see the journey, but it's also personal accountability to make sure. Because I also hear this from salespeople and escrow officers. Oh, I talk to them all the time. Because a month goes by like this in this industry.

So it's a way to make sure you're actually committing to that and doing what you think you're doing to develop and deepen those relationships. Yeah, I really love that Blueprint, that spreadsheet. It's a great replacement for a CRM. You know, it's a challenge and we've struggled with CRMs for years and we still kind of keep dabbing at it. But it's really a simple way to have a simple spreadsheet in front of you with dates and stuff.

And it's a great way to use that instead of a CRM. And ours is the dropdown menus too, which helps because as a salesperson, you know, I need it done in five seconds. So I can do a dropdown menu, click a date and move on with my day. So you got to make it easy to use as well is what I would tell listeners too. What specific tools or technology do you recommend for streamlining the sales process and maximizing growth?

So it's funny, we're doing a lot with AI over here and we're building out some really cool things. And I know you guys are too. And I think that's an unbelievable tool because it's a time-saver. If you train it well, again, it's a tool, but if you train it well, it really can help you. It can help you with emails.

I've got a couple of guys that I'm coaching right now and we've been doing email marketing campaigns. AI is great for brainstorming. It's a great brainstorming partner. And then you pull some thoughts. So I think that's one.

And also just the visual aspects of AI and be able to make visuals for social media campaigns, but technology is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. It's recognizing the pieces that are going to serve you the best. And this is sort of my caveat for everybody listening too, is don't do it just because everybody's doing it. Do it because it matters to the execution of your goals and your sales strategy.

And so there's ones that we all need to have, the banking ones, the security and all these things. But when it comes to the sales aspect, you need it because it does a specific function for you. Like if I'm not a bicyclist and I'm doing a workout program, I don't need a bike. So don't get it if you don't need it. Absolutely.

So you're mainly using AI for content and for brainstorming and idea generation? Yeah, it's a lot of ideation. And one of the other things that we use it for though is literally kicking around ideas. So we'll like plug something in and then the team, we do a lot of, we call it creative collaboration here, but we'll throw it out to the whole team. We're small, we're only 12 people, but we bounce back and forth.

And somebody will take one of those, pop it into AI, stick it back in the text stream. And it's really fun. And there's some wacky stuff it comes up with. Different, yeah. It's all about prompting, how different prompts gives you different results and different.

Yeah. Switching a little bit here, how can title professionals differentiate themselves and build strong brand identities in a competitive marketplace? Oh, such a good question. So this is literally kind of the topic of my second book, which is called Sell Yourself in that it starts with your people. It is your personal brand.

And I think this is one thing that companies, not just title companies, but companies forget, you can have the best brand, you can have the best burger, but if I don't like the person serving it to me, I'm not gonna go back. And it's the experience that I go through. And oftentimes when I'm doing a keynote, I tell a story about our dental hygienists that we literally switched our insurance to stay with them because we love her so much. And it's because of the experience. I see her twice a year for 25 minutes.

Like I want everybody to think about this, twice a year for 25 minutes, but it's such an incredible experience. I don't wanna change. And that's a differentiator and it's her brand. It's who she is that keeps us going back. So for all the title professionals, when you're thinking about this, do each of your people know how important they are to the customer and their place on the relay team?

Do they understand that their brand, who they are bringing to the table every day at work is what makes that customer come back. And we all know this too. We know these clients that are like, oh, well, if Sally's out, I'm not coming over. I'm waiting till she comes back. That's because Sally's got a really strong brand.

I think that is your best differentiator, especially in a market where we are becoming more and more commoditized, more and more regulated. We have to remember at the end of the day, we're still people selling to people. I know you're big on, obviously the title of your book is every job is a sales job. Can you elaborate a little more? And by the way, I highly recommend reading this book and I've read it and I've given it to everybody in my company before.

Can you just a little dive in into how everybody's in sales? And a lot of people, they resist that idea. I know it's a different parts of the country, like the escrow officers in the Midwest and the West, they're used to selling behind the desk and by the East Coast, it's real different. So can you just chime in a little more on that? Definitely.

So my favorite topic ever, right, is sales. I never wanted to be in sales either though. And a lot of people don't know that about my story and I do talk about it in the book, but I was put into a sales role kicking and screaming. And when I realized, like I said at the beginning, it's about helping people, I went, wait a second, I've been doing this my whole life. I just didn't know it was sales.

I just thought it was helping. And so when you're able to recalibrate your thinking around sales and that where I'm not asking you to be like Tommy Two Thumbs, you know, the used car. I mean, think about the people that we encounter in sales, that's less than 1% of salespeople are that. But that's the caricature we have in our heads. So for title companies and escrow companies, every single person you have in your organization is in sales because they're a walking commercial for your brand.

When they leave, when they go to their kid's soccer game, they are an ambassador. And I think what ends up happening in the title business is we give really good service. Totally get it, that's the expectation. But service is reactive. Service is once they've already walked in the door, I'm gonna hook you up and I'm gonna take care of you.

Sales is the invitation and proactive outreach to bring them in. That's why I believe every job is a sales job because I believe that it's everyone's job to make sure everyone you encounter knows you are welcome here, we want to see you. Very well said. We're been in the down markets for almost a little over a couple of years now. What advice to give title professionals, title agents, title owners in this down markets, how can they reinvent themselves because it's definitely top of the business is down about 50, 60% from a couple of years ago.

It's amazing, like even our sales team, we have top 20% still crushing it in a down market. What advice can you give to our audience? So it's about talking to those people that you don't get business from. And until you've got about 85% of your sales, you're not gonna get business from them. So it's about talking to those people that you don't get business from.

And until you've got about 85% of your sales, We've been in the down markets for almost a little over a couple of years now. What advice do you give title professionals, title agents, title owners in this down market? How can they reinvent themselves and how can they, because it's definitely top of the business is down about 50, 60% from a couple of years ago. It's amazing. Like even our sales team, we have top 20% still crushing it in a down market.

What advice can you give to our audience? So it's about talking to those people that you don't get business from. And until you've got about 85% of market share in your market, don't tell me there's no business to go get. And I don't care if it's JVs, I know all the excuses every title agent's going to tell me about their market, but yet we're still able to move the market share needle. Even in markets like this, you're doing it.

You know it can be done, but it's about seeking and inviting those people in and branding yourself as that company that wants your business and how you're going to partner with those realtors, those lenders to make them successful. If you're going around town and you're telling anybody to give really good service, the problem is I already have that with the title company I'm using. I expect that. I already know. Tell me something else.

Tell me how you're going to make my life easier. You're going to make me look good so I get more referrals. You're going to make it so that my clients leave and they are raving fans. That's what I need to see in this market. And so a lot of title companies and a lot of our clients right now, we are working on their rebrand.

We're working on how they're telling their story, taking the words customer service off the website because it's expected. It looks like everybody else's. So that's my advice is don't wait for them to come to you. Go invite them in. Be okay if they say no for now, but be persistent about making sure they feel welcome.

Very well said. Again, it's what I keep preaching to everybody in my team. Can business not come until you have to go get it? And it's so true. People that go get it, they're crushing it and people are waiting for it.

They're going to wait another two or three more years. And who knows? It could be three months, knocking on wood, hopefully, but it's going to be a while, but it's just you have to go get it. And people, I mean, even like the top producing agents and mortgage officers, they really want people that are go-getters and they're hungry. Getting close to wrapping up here, what trends do you see coming in our industry besides AI?

What else do you see? I mean, you talked a lot of higher ups in the tele-industry, what's the forecast and what do you see coming next six months, next year? Yeah, we're all seeing the same economic forecast, so we won't go there. But with regard to trends, there is a resurgence of the human factor. And I think it's because of a lot of the technology.

We've become so technology centric. So a lot of our clients, I know you guys do this too, it's how we're reaching out to connect as humans and whether using technology like video to connect and things like that. But finding ways to bring the human element back into it, I've noticed a lot more. I've got closers and escrow officers that are, believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen, going out and getting coffee with people. I know that's terrifying for some, but it's amazing because they do have the availability of time right now to go out and deepen those relationships.

And so that is a trend that I'm seeing is people are getting back to peopling in this market and we did get away from it for a lot of reasons over the last few years. We were slammed, there was health issues, all sorts of stuff. Now it's like, oh, we like people. That's why we got in this business anyways. So that's actually a trend that I'm seeing.

And I'll tell you one other trend that I'm starting to see, and it's pretty early on though, is how we're mobile as an organization. I'm a remote company. I have been for 16 years, but that opportunity to expand your talent pool by being open to remote workers, hybrid workers. And I know half the audience just shut down because I said hybrid, but I really do think it's here to stay. And I think that there's some unbelievable trends where people are realizing the workforce is very rich and robust because we have technology we can use to expand our talent pool.

And I'm seeing that more and more. Absolutely. I think 80% of our team is remote and not going back. I don't want them back. Yeah, exactly.

I don't want to pay that rent, right? I mean, it's just a quality of life. I mean, somebody's happy and they're more productive at home. Why mess with that? Spend two hours in the DC traffic a day.

Yeah. And it's funny because we were a remote company. I started it that way 16 years ago when everybody went work from home. All our clients were like, oh my gosh, what do we do? And I'm like, nothing, you're going to be fine.

We're going to figure this out. It's okay. And I find, at least for my team, and I know you do this too with your folks, they work harder at home. So I have to text them and email them and say, get off of the computer. Go have dinner.

Stop. You know? It's amazing. I remember the COVID days when I was working from home for a couple of months and literally you work in 12, 14 hours without realizing it. When I started going to the office, then I started counting my hours.

Yeah. A better life balance when you went back. Yeah. Yes. That's just me.

Same. I can't imagine. Same. Yeah. I can't imagine.

Yeah. Do you have a favorite quote that guides your approach to sales and marketing or your overall mindset? One of my all-time favorite quotes in life is Ayn Rand, the question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me. And the reason that quote is so important to me is because I firmly live in the place of possibility. I want to see the way around it, through it, under it, over it, whatever it is, to get to that goal and to make it happen.

I think that this quote really represents the fact that it doesn't matter what outside pressure is occurring. It's that I'm betting on me and it's really important to me because I believe at the end of the day, you have to bet on yourself first. That's awesome. What's a favorite book you read recently or maybe a lifetime favorite book besides Every Job is a Sales Job? You know what's funny?

No, because I'm a voracious reader and I know you are too. I went back and revisited Atomic Habits recently and it holds up still. I'm a fan and I'll go back and reread things, but I'm working on a new project. So a lot of my books have been, I have a stack that's sitting right here that are working on that one. But I went back and flipped back through that one because it's a good one.

I think that's going to be kind of a Dale Carnegie style. It'll be here for a while. I need to go back and listen to it again. It's a good one. It's amazing how we're on autopilot.

You do want to be on autopilot as long as you're in control of what's not autopilot. You're actually building those habits, they're not building you. Yeah. It's being intentional and it's being proactive versus reactive. That's really the biggest piece of it.

And I think that ends up happening in our industry. It's really easy to get on autopilot in the title business because it's a little bit of rinse and repeat every day if we're not careful. So finding that intention to wow somebody, finding that intention in that moment to say, okay, I'm going to do this differently. I'm going to make this happen. I'm going to send a video.

I'm going to send a text. I'm actually going to pick up the phone and call versus send another email. Those break it up and that actually creates even better habits down the road. Absolutely. Any final thoughts or words of wisdom to our audience?

I would love to leave the audience with one thought, which is every single person in your organization has the ability to impact another human's viewpoint on your company. And when you start thinking of it like that, every single person, the person that cleans your office, the person that answers the phone, the person that's back doing abstracts, who's in the basement of the courthouse, every single person, right? That's where you started exactly. But every single person impacts the ability for your company to grow. How are you as a leader empowering them to do that?

And if you're not, the answer is you're doing the exact opposite. So let's find ways to continue to empower people and come from that place of abundance and lift them up because I honestly believe that we're all stronger if we all come with our superpowers to work every day. That's a lot of wisdom. Thank you so much. And what's the best way for our audience to reach you?

So the best way is orangeleafconsulting.com or orangeleafacademy.com. And you can find me at 1stladyofsales on any of the social media platforms. And I would love to hear from everybody that's listening and watching how you're applying these concepts. My favorite thing that gets me out of work every day is waking up and hearing how people did something with what they've heard or learned that day. I think we learn every single day in everything we do.

So share those success stories. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us and I appreciate you. Thank you so much for having me, Mo. It's always good to see you.

And that's a wrap on today's journey with Mo Shamil from the Title Agents podcast, reminding you that mastering the art of innovation is key in the title industry's fast-paced world. If you're finding it tough to keep up with the changes and challenges, remember, you're not alone. Our calendar is open for you. Find the link in the show notes and let's connect. Make sure to hit subscribe to not miss out on strategies that elevate and insights that empower.

Together, we'll navigate the future of the industry. I look forward to our next meeting in the upcoming episode. Keep pushing, keep innovating, and see you in the next episode.