Real Estate Tax Forecasting for Title Agents | Ep 23

When you're looking at implementing a technology, trust that there is some value there, but certainly verify that tool that you're going to be implementing is going to affect the change that you hope that it will. Otherwise, you're just going to be saddled with something that in some cases may drag down your operational efficiency. In a world where change is the only constant, Mo Shamil stands at the forefront, guiding title professionals to not just grow their businesses, but to master the art of innovation. With every episode, you're handed the keys to unlock unparalleled growth and stay ahead of the curve. Get ready for a transformative journey.

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Title Asians podcast, where we dive into the trends, strategies, and leadership insights shaping the title industry. In today's episode, I'm joined by Ross Lichtenhaus, a seasoned entrepreneur with deep expertise in real estate and title services. We'll explore his journey, discuss industry trends, and unpack how title professionals can stay ahead and rapidly change the market. Let's jump right in. Welcome, Ross.

Thanks, love. Appreciate you having me. Well, I always like to start by telling you a story, your life story, look it up in a few minutes and still get to know a little more about you. Yeah. Where'd you like to start?

At the very beginning? Sure. Yes. All the way back to April 15th, 1980. Fantastic.

So my background, I think is a little bit like a country song. Born in Mississippi, raised in Alabama, ended up here in the big city of Washington, DC for graduate school. And I had, I think from about the age of 19 or so, had an interest in real estate, and that's frankly what brought me to Washington, DC, and I've been in this space now for about 21 years and have had quite the entrepreneurial journey to get where I am here today. So how did you find yourself working in the real estate industry? And you said that fascinated you.

That's what pushed you to come to DC and why real estate in particular? Yes. My father was a, was a financial advisor with different brokerage firms throughout his career. And I'd always had an interest in investment, right? In the idea of putting money to work, but it was just never entirely comfortable with the idea of having a paycheck tied to the whims of a market and performance of companies that frankly I had no impact on.

And shortly after college, I worked as a fishing guide on Lake Champlain up in Vermont. And I did a lot of reading my days off. And there was a particular book that was called Rich Dad, Poor Dad, which I think a lot of- One of the best. Yep. Everybody knows that.

And at that time I was reading that book and it started to impress upon me the power of investing in real estate and thinking about the tax implications and just really became enamored with the idea that you could impact your livelihood through an impact on a physical, tangible investment like real estate. And so I began looking around for a different graduate school programs because I had an undergraduate degree in political science and history, which basically qualifies you to apply to law school. I'm not great at standardized tests, or I could work at a library. And either one of those really interested me at the time. And so I knew that I needed a graduate school to get some practical application.

So I began looking around at different programs. An American university here in Washington, D.C. had a business school with a specific real estate and urban development program. So it gave me a great combination of business acumen, but also a specialization in real estate. And so I came up here to go to school and landed my first job about six months into that program for a law firm that worked in the real estate tax space.

So I fell completely backwards into this specialization in state and local tax that I'm in now. And that journey has just been, I think, I've been in it 21 years, which is probably 20 years longer than I thought it would last, but it's led to this amazing entrepreneurial journey that has just been incredible and I've enjoyed almost every minute of it. Awesome. So when did you launch your company? Is it Texonix?

Yeah. Yeah. So I've got a couple of different companies. The first was Calvary Real Estate Advisors, which I launched in 2021. And that is the consultative aspect of the space that I'm in.

And then Texonix, which is our technology platform, we launched about a year and a half later. And so I spend my time in both. And I think the genesis of our introduction, Mo, was really centered around Texonix, which to some extent solving for problems in the industry that I work in through technology has really been the driving force behind the creation of both of those companies. And Calvary was created because when it comes to professional services, it's much easier to generate revenue on day one than it is building a technology application, and so we built a consulting company to feed the development of the technology applications and after about a year or so of development, commercialized those applications, and now I've got revenue streams coming from both the services side and now the technology side. That's awesome.

So the consultative service was more geared towards commercial. Is that correct? Yeah, exactly. Elaborate a little more. Yeah, really the niche space that I'm in in real estate is solving real estate tax problems, and that's been a problem and something that weighs heavily on title companies as well.

So there's a lot of different areas that we touch. We're basically in the business of helping people understand, manage, and reduce real estate taxes. So we do a lot of real estate tax appeals. Our consulting company, we provide a lot of advisory services as well to help folks navigate land use and entitlement and rezoning applications through fiscal and economic impact studies. We do a lot around credits and incentives as well, and then helping people understand what their real estate taxes are going to be if they buy or build a property, and that last one is something that we've been able to successfully productize as one of our first products in the Taxonics platform too, but it's all in service of creating value for real estate companies, specifically on the commercial side.

And Taxonics is more focused on residential. Can you go a little deeper what it does? Yeah, so when we actually launched Taxonics, it was focused on commercial, and that was simply because commercial, I think, is the commercial space is a much more challenging problem to solve for us, and in terms of our value creation in the market, focusing on commercial made a lot more sense. There is certainly an application from a residential perspective. There's also a lot of competition out there, and I think that in terms of our value proposition to the industry, it was much more easily established by focusing on the commercial industry as opposed to residential, but that is definitely on the roadmap.

As every entrepreneur faces obstacles, can you tell us about a challenge you encountered along the way and how you overcame it? Oh God, where do we start? Here's the everyday challenge. I've been an entrepreneur for a very long time. I created my first business when I was 11.

I had a neighborhood lemonade stand that I ended up expanding into selling snacks and sodas. I got my first W-2 job when I was 14, stacking or stocking shelves at a drug store, even though I think I wasn't legally able to do that, but they gave me a pass, so I'm not going to throw anybody out of the bus, but I've always hustled, always been working, and I've always enjoyed that idea of managing your own destiny. But fast forward to now where you're building an adult company as an entrepreneur. The biggest challenge, and everybody thinks it's rainbows and uniforms, and now I get to do what I want, and I can build what I want, nobody can tell me what I can't do. While that is true, the weight, the burden of building a company at scale, where you begin to hire people whose livelihoods, quality of life, families are dependent upon you, weighs very heavily, because you don't have this larger corporate entity that most people get where there's a fallback plant.

You've got a brand that's established to help you market and sell your services. You've got HR and legal and accounting, all of these folks that run a lot of the stuff behind the scene. And by the way, if something happens in your world as a W-2 or you lose a client, yeah, that's not great, but you've got this machine behind you to support that. As an entrepreneur, all of that burden rests on your shoulders, and it can become suffocating some days, to the point where you have these ups and downs that you're facing at one point, like total annihilation of your business, and to the next minute winning a huge contract that allows you to issue bonuses to folks and improve everyone's quality of life, so you have to have this mental and almost intestinal fortitude as an entrepreneur to overcome that. And while I was somewhat prepared for that, it became and still is a struggle on a daily basis to manage that and not completely lose your mind on a regular basis, but I will tell you right now, even with all the ups and downs, and we have had a lot, which I'm happy to go into, some very consequential things, that put us to some really interesting and consequential inflection points.

Being able to manage that, I think, is the real challenge that you have to face as an entrepreneur. The technical aspect, the operational side, you can build a support network for that, but it's the mental. You have to be prepared to go from one fire drill to the next and absolutely love it. Brace the chaos, and that's what you thrive on, and that really is very true. What habits or routines helped you stay motivated and resilient, even during these difficult times?

Yeah, the first is having a strong network of peers and service providers in the industry, and I've mentioned legal, accounting, and all that kind of stuff. One of the first recommendations I would have for somebody that's starting their entrepreneurial journey is to make a list of all the people that can help solve business problems for you. People that you can lean on, people that you can hire, because you're not going to be able to do everything, and at some point, you need to surround yourself with really smart people that can help you accomplish things that are just outside of your wheelhouse. Getting into the mental aspect of this, and this sounds easy, but a lot of folks still don't do it. Sleep, exercise, diet, hydration.

It's amazing how much of a difference they can make in your mental state. I've got a sauna here in my backyard office that is my church on a regular basis where I go for mental health, so I'm a big proponent of the sauna. To get the frustrations and the aggression out to some extent. because you're not going to be able to do everything. And at some point, you need to surround yourself with really smart people that can help you accomplish things that are just outside of your wheelhouse.

Getting into the mental aspect of this, and this sounds easy, but a lot of folks still don't do it. Sleep, exercise, diet, hydration. It's amazing how much of a difference they can make in your mental state. I've got a sauna here in my backyard office that is my church on a regular basis where I go for mental health. So I'm a big proponent of the sauna to get the frustrations and the aggression out to some extent, but also just to have a place to go where my mind is not focused on business.

I still play quite a bit of competitive lacrosse and shout out to the guys at Beltway Lacrosse League, best lacrosse league in the DMV. That's one of the only things that I do on a regular basis to where my mind completely switches off from work and I can focus on just what's happening on the field. And I feel like at the end of a game, I feel like I've accomplished something. You've had your ups and downs in that game, but I've been able to switch off completely. And those are important pieces that have allowed me to survive these ups and downs and this kind of bipolar aspect of entrepreneurial.

And then frankly, a really strong family support group. You can't be a successful entrepreneur without the support of your immediate family because they're in it, good or bad. Let's shift gears to technology and the title in real estate space. How do you see technology evolving in title space and what innovations do you think will have the most significant impact on title agencies in the near future? So Mo, I think you and I have talked about this over coffee in the past and I know that there's probably been a lot of discussion about this and I know you've got your opinions.

The topic du jour there for such a long time, especially as it related to title and recordation and deed and immutable proof of ownership. Let's talk about blockchain, right? How much of a disruptor that's going to be. And while I do think that there is a place in real estate, especially as it affects title and deed and proof of ownership in blockchain, I don't think that that's going to overtake this area of the industry as much as people think. I do think, however, it will make a huge difference in terms of facilitating transactions, which trust around transactions is paramount and that's what title industry helps solve for.

I think it will play a huge difference in some developing countries, especially in Africa, where establishing chain of ownership and land recordation, deed recordation, real estate ownership is important. But I don't think that it's going to overtake the title industry, at least as I see it right now. There's always going to be that need, I think, for that human component, especially with the way that our industry is set up. And then the other, which even sounds cliche right now, but artificial intelligence, AI, everybody's talking about AI. And while I do see some opportunities there for machine learning, and we've certainly talked about it in terms of our applications where you have enough observations, you train the model correctly, you can start to get some really good outcomes from that.

But there is a tremendous amount of misinformation and I would say laziness in real estate industry for folks that are leaning too heavily into artificial intelligence. I've seen meetings and presentations and proposals which are so glaringly obvious that somebody ran that through chat GPT because it is only surface level. And while there is a lot of opportunity from a technology perspective to harness data and analytics and machine learning, the real value that those of us that work in real estate bring to solving those technology problems is that right brain aspect. And if you look at some of the smartest people in the world that are opining on AI, they will tell you that we are decades, if not forever ahead of us, AI solving for that right brain component. Our brains are incredible computers that can make decisions on context, right?

Seeing something and contextually adding an explanation or an understanding to a lot of data and computers and algorithms and AI and machine learning simply cannot solve for that right now. And so our position as experts that bring value to interpretation of data are not going to be displaced at any point in the future. And if you're able to harness AI and machine learning applications in a way where you can use that and layer on the right brain aspect, that's what's going to differentiate the real successful companies in our industry from the companies that are leaning too heavily on technology and then just effectively become a cheap commodity. I'm big on technology, but at the end of the day, technology, it's merely a tool. It still needs that person that wisdom, knowledge, contacts you mentioned earlier.

Yes. And a lot of people like that, there's this fear of AI. You're going to lose your job to AI. You're not going to lose your job to AI, but you're going to lose your job to somebody using AI. Right.

That makes a lot of sense. It's interesting. There are companies now hiring, mostly in the younger generation, because they grew up in the nascent stages of AI, especially with the language AI, like ChatGPT. Kind of large language models. Yeah, the language models.

There are companies that are hiring folks right out of college that know how to provide the prompts correctly, right? So how do you use ChatGPT, Perplexity, and some of those other tools to be able to prompt to get the information you need? So it's a great point that you make. It's not the tool that's going to displace you, it's the individuals using that tool. What advice do you have for title professionals trying to integrate new technologies without disrupting their operations?

That is a good question. I would say this, because there is a lot of misinformation out there. There are a lot of snake oil salesmen selling tools that will disrupt the industry. And one of the best pieces of advice that I got when I first got started in real estate was from a good friend of mine, Bill Singer, who runs a real estate investment asset management firm here out of Bethesda, that you've got to be able to provide something unique. So we talk about that context, but more importantly, any way that comes to you and tells you that there is this paradigm shift, right?

We're turning the real estate industry upside down with this particular tool right now, you need to run the other way. Because shifts like that do not happen that quickly. And so I would say trust, but verify, right? So when you're looking at implementing a technology, trust that there is some value there, but certainly verify that tool that you're going to be implementing is going to affect the change that you hope that it will. Otherwise, you're just going to be saddled with something that in some cases may drag down your operational efficiency.

The real estate market is constantly shifting. What changes do you think title professionals should prepare for the near future? Oh, title companies in the near future. Let's talk real estate professionals in general, because you're deeper into the title industry than I am. In terms of trends in the marketplace, I think it goes without saying we've got a glut of office product out there.

And there are going to be some really smart people that are going to figure out adaptive reuse of those office buildings. And frankly, that's going to be one of the biggest challenges affecting our industry because there's a lot of money riding on those buildings. There's a lot of banks, insurance companies, and others that can face existential threats if they don't figure out how to right-size those, because there's a lot of buildings that are underwater going back to fire sale. Any one of the dense urban environments that have got an oversupply of vacant office, that's really going to be driving, I think, a lot of what is impacting our industry. And I couldn't go without talking about the data center space.

And I will say, I'll confess, I am a partner in the data center development venture because we've talked about AI. One thing that I will tell you is that our creation of data and our need for more data storage, as well as to run these applications that are controlling our lives, is an insatiable demand for data center space. And you're going to start to see these data centers not only popping up in the large hyperscale formats of hundreds of acres that we see out here in Northern Virginia, but you're going to start to see them tucked in as an edge data center into some of these buildings in the dense urban environments. And that could, frankly, be another opportunity for office use. But the data center space is changing so rapidly that it's impacting everything that we see and touch here in commercial real estate.

And it's what's very interesting is how data centers, especially like the hosting AI chips and... Yeah, data chips, yeah. Yeah. It's like how now we see how it was like a nuclear energy taboo. Like now it's everybody's talking about nuclear energy.

Hey, listen, nuclear power is the only thing that is going to allow the United States of America to continue its dominance in the digital age. It is inevitable. I'll just give you a quick statistics for anybody that's interested there in data centers. Data centers of old legacy data centers call it a 200,000 square foot facility. They would consume 10, 20 megawatts of power, which by the way, a single high-rise office building downtown consumes about one megawatt.

So that just gives you an idea of the power scale difference. We are now seeing... Is that an hour a day, a year? It's basically just a measure of like total consumption. The AI applications in those data centers that are being purpose-built for that are consuming three times that amount.

We're seeing some same footprints now consuming 60 to 100 megawatts, which is just an astronomical amount of power. And you've got entire nuclear power plants that are only generating about 800 megawatts. And this is another interesting statistic. Do you know how many nuclear power plants that are currently being constructed here in the United States? You want to take a guess?

Blunt. It was close. China, on the other hand, has got three dozen nuclear power plants under construction and data centers follow power. And if we don't start solving the power through nuclear, we're going to lose our competitive edge. Let's go stick in with innovation and technology and let's go back to texonics.

Can you dig a little deeper in the problem you're solving? And I want to start using your service. Just one of the biggest problems we always have is taxes, especially when we were a national company, we deal with different municipalities, states, and there's so many nuances, and there's always kind of a curveball thrown at you. Yes. So you're absolutely correct.

And that was really the genesis behind taxonics, helping demystify what's happening in the real estate tax space. There are more than 3,100 different taxing jurisdictions in the United States, and each one of them taxes and assesses real estate a little bit differently, different tax linears. I want to start using your service, just one of the biggest problems we always have is taxes, especially when we were a national company, we deal with different municipalities, states, and there's so many nuances and there's always kind of a curveball thrown at you. Yeah, so you're absolutely correct. And that was really the genesis behind Taxonics, helping demystify what's happening in the real estate tax space.

There are more than 3,100 different taxing jurisdictions in the United States, and each one of them taxes and assesses real estate a little bit differently. Different tax lean years, different assessment dates, appeal deadlines, assessment ratios, millage rates. I mean, it gets incredibly complicated and confusing. And again, I've been in this space for 21 years now. And so the two products that we built were meant to help solve that problem of what's happening with my property.

What are the taxes going to be? How do I understand what this jurisdiction is doing? Because real estate taxes are your single largest operating expense if you own a property, residential or commercial. You pay your loan, you return money to an equity investor. But in terms of what we call above the line and operating expense, real estate taxes are the largest expense.

So there is value to helping people solve that. And there's $700 billion in property taxes paid each year in the United States. And so what we set out to do was to help solve that. The first product that we built was a real estate tax forecasting study or analysis that is used for due diligence purposes. And what that does is that will give someone a comprehensive and accurate forecast of what their real estate taxes are going to be over the life of ownership of a property.

And we will dive into everything related to the assessment growth, as well as the physical real estate taxes and when they need to be paid, both cash and accrual. And then we also provide an analysis of a competitive set of properties that says, hey, here's what we think your taxes are going to be based on the methodology of that jurisdiction. But also here's 10 properties just like yours. And here's how they were taxed and assessed. So you can also benchmark against that, which that is incredibly difficult to get in quick fashion.

And we can do this for any property type, any deal type, anywhere in the country. And we do thousands of these. And it is the best product that exists to help people estimate what the real estate taxes are going to be before they buy or develop. And then the second product, which we just launched and you guys did subscribe to, is a product that we call Inform. And it is the country's only database that is a single point of entry and resource to find out everything that you need to know about how real estate taxes work.

You log in, you go pick the jurisdiction and it'll tell you everything that you need to know. But more importantly, our township or municipality, any additional kind of some cities or counties have real estate taxes and they have additional. A lot of times that we go, let's get missed. It was all the way down the rabbit hole, state taxes, county taxes, city, different associations not have Valorum fees. And then more importantly, we provide some observational context to do research feed where you can see in real time examples of how different issues in states and jurisdictions have affected your taxes, could be credits and incentives, could be legislative changes.

We capture all of that easily searchable. It's a cloud based application and it is the only one of its kind. And in terms of helping people solve real estate tax problems and answer questions like some of your title agents and officers have to do, they go to one single place, they get that question answered. And it's an incredibly powerful tool. What advice would you give to someone just starting their entrepreneurial journey, particularly in a competitive industry like real estate or title?

The first thing that I would say is, the first thing I would do is I would sit down and figure out one, what is the problem that you're trying to solve? What is it you can do to help solve that problem? And then think about whether or not and not even just think about it. I would actually go out and talk to people. One of the best things you can do is just go ask potential buyers in the industry.

Hey, do you have this problem? If you do, would you pay for a solution? And if you would pay for a solution, would you buy that solution from me? Ask 10 people that you think are potential targets, because in many cases, folks will build a solution or a product to start a company, one to solve a problem that in some cases doesn't need to be solved or two is already being solved by somebody else. And so you trying to recreate the wheel is banging your head against the wall when all you really need to do was go do some R&D and not research and development, but rip off and duplicate.

Right. Go see what somebody else is doing successfully. And say, can I do that better? Can I do that faster? Can I do it cheaper?

Can I create more value and then go that direction? The second thing I would say is build a team of individuals out in the industry that can help support some of these kind of professional services that surround operating as an entrepreneur. And we talked about legal and accounting and insurance. It's incredible the number of people that I meet that are going on this business startup journey that are asking questions of how do I get an entity set up? Right.

Who's a small business account that I can work with? And they've already the horses left the barn. They haven't even done that preparatory work. And that is it is such a simple but necessary piece of the entrepreneurial journey to test the market and then to do your research to help support yourself operationally so you don't lose your mind in the first six months. I'm sure you've read Zero to One by Peter Thiel.

Yes. I always recommend that book for anybody starting a business. It's more technical, more about technology, but it can apply to other businesses. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Absolutely right.

Do you have a favorite quote? I've got a couple. One is no one person has a monopoly on good ideas. And I say this to my team all the time. And I say it constantly because I want them to believe it and know it.

And that is no one person has a monopoly on good ideas about strategy and execution, including me as the founder, CEO of the company. Some of the best ideas that I've gotten come from a diversity of opinions. And this is not like diversity in the sense of looking for a DEI soundbite. I truly believe that the best solutions and the best long term strategies are built through a diversity of backgrounds, experience, opinions to get to that kind of ideation strategy, because I was amazed when I went and worked for a publicly traded company. I'm not going to name names.

The number of decisions that are made for long term strategy in a boardroom by folks that are so far removed from the actual product or service delivery that if they just take in a second to even ask the front desk receptionist, the administrative assistant, the analyst, the folks in accounting get their opinion on how we can solve a problem and then digest that. You're going to be so much more successful. And then so another quote that I like is it's very simple is don't stop. Just don't stop. Ideas and businesses don't die.

People quit. You just cannot stop. You have to keep going. Don't stop. Keep going.

Every single day is a test. Right. And if you look at some of the most successful high performing organizations in the world, from Navy SEALs down to successful tech startups, one thing that resonates all the time is you get up every day and you just have to commit yourself to not stopping to keep going. That grit and determination is incredibly important. And so I reiterate that all the time in my own head, which is you just cannot stop, even when it seems like the wall that you're facing is insurmountable, like you just cannot get over this wall.

You just have to keep going, go around, go over, go through it, go under it. It doesn't matter. Just do not stop. Keep going. That is the best advice that I can give folks, because it is so hard to start a business in this country.

Everybody tells you the American dream is come to America. It's the land of opportunity. Anybody can start a business. That's true. If you're a sole proprietor, party of one, you got a sole proprietorship and LLC.

It's just you. But if you want to build anything at scale that involves other people and that involves doing it legally above board, it is incredibly difficult to do that. And you have to have this don't stop mentality every single day when you get up or you're going to you're going to fail. How about a favorite book or books you can share? Let's see right now.

The best book advice I can give someone that is looking to be their own CEO and an entrepreneur is a book by Matt Mockery. And I'm going to try not to butcher the name. I think it's called The Great CEO Within, I think is the name of it. But Matt Mockery, M-O-C-H-A-R-Y. It is a literal step by step guide on how to be a CEO and run a company like all the little stuff that we've talked about operationally.

It's a phenomenal just kind of survival handbook. The other book that I like, which I think is relevant for what we talk today in terms of this right brain and combination of technology. I'm a huge fan of Daniel Pink. He's a D.C. native here.

I've read every book that he's ever written. But he has a book called you look at someone bookshelf here. A whole new mind. The white brain thinkers, right brainers will rule the future. And it's a great book on being able to synthesize data through all these technology applications and then add context and value to it.

It's a phenomenal book. And then the last book I'm going to tell you, and I give this to everybody on my team. Are these in the business of presenting and communicating heavily? And that is a book called The New Articulate Executive, I think is the name of it. It is a phenomenal book on presentation, business communications, the best one that I've read to date.

And so for anybody that wants to... The New Articulate Executive? The New Articulate Executive. And it's Granville Thurgood. It's a really interesting name.

But yeah, New Articulate Executive. You can get it on any online bookstore, Amazon. I'm a I'm an Audible guy. So I'm... Yeah, or audiobook.

It's a great book. Those are three books that come to mind that speak to different things. And I'm always in the business of focusing my team. And this is important, too, is closing thought here. As an entrepreneur, anybody you add to your organization, they need to understand that everybody's in the business of sales.

Everybody sells. And I don't mean everybody picks up the phone and is dialing for dollars. But you're selling something to somebody. You're selling the idea to your boss. You're selling a product to a potential buyer.

You are getting a current customer you're working with to believe in what you're doing and that your company is the best. Everybody needs to be in the business and mindset of selling your brand, your business. It's just understanding who your sales target is. It could be internal, could be external. Everybody picks up the phone and is dialing for dollars, but you're selling something to somebody.

You're selling the idea to your boss. You're selling a product to a potential buyer. You are getting a current customer you're working with to believe in what you're doing and that your company is the best. Everybody needs to be in the business and mindset of selling your brand, your business. It's just understanding who your sales target is.

It could be internal, could be external, but everybody needs to think about selling the brand and the vision that's incredibly important. And there's some great books out there for that. It's funny you said that. One of my very good friends, and she was a guest on my podcast a few months ago, Dr. Cindy McGovern has a book called Everybody's in Sales.

I might have butchered the title of the book, but it's something goes like, you're 100% correct. That is very true. Thank you for tuning in. And a special thanks to my good friend, Ross Lickenhouse for sharing his journey and insights. If you enjoyed this conversation, please be sure to hit subscribe button so you never miss an episode.

Until next time, keep learning, keep evolving and stay ahead in the talent game. Thank you. And that's a wrap on today's journey with Mo Shamil from the Title Agents Podcast. Reminding you that mastering the art of innovation is key in the title industry's fast-paced world. If you're finding it tough to keep up with the changes and challenges, remember you're not alone.

Our calendar is open for you. Find the link in the show notes and let's connect. Make sure to hit subscribe to not miss out on strategies that elevate and insights that empower. Together, we'll navigate the future of the industry. I look forward to our next meeting in the upcoming episode.

Keep pushing, keep innovating and see you in the next episode.