Title Insurance Underwriting Best Practices | Title Agents Podcast Ep17

A machine may be able to do it better than a person, probably even faster, but they'll never replace the title professional because the machines, they can't interact with people. And this is a people business. In a world where change is the only constant, Mo Shamil stands at the forefront, guiding title professionals to not just grow their businesses, but to master the art of innovation. With every episode, you're handed the keys to unlock unparalleled growth and stay ahead of the curve. Get ready for a transformative journey.

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Title Agents podcast, where we bring you insights from the top minds in the title industry. I am your host, Mo Shamil, Alltech National Title CEO. And today we have the pleasure of speaking with Bill O'Connell, Vice President and Division State Manager at First American Title, with decades of experience in both law and title insurance. Bill is a true expert in underwriting and regulatory matters. Today, he'll share his expertise on navigating the complexities of title work, staying compliant with ongoing changing legislation that never ends, and the future trends that will shape our industry.

This is an episode packed with valuable insights that you won't want to miss. Welcome, Bill. Thank you, Mo. Glad to be here. I'm very glad and happy to have you on the show.

And first of all, I'd love to start with your life story, how you got started in the title industry. I got lucky. I had been out of law school for, I don't know, about six years. Where did you go to law school? I went to the University of San Francisco.

I was a general sale litigator, mostly insurance defense, for about five years. I wanted to make my way back to the East Coast. Did you grow up in the East Coast? I did. I went to high school in Maryland, went to the University of Maryland, and then eventually made my way to California to go to law school.

And I was looking in the paper one day, I saw an ad for a litigator for a large national title insurer. And I was like, huh, that sounds interesting. So I went on the interview, and the guy I interviewed with was telling me all about it. And I'm sitting there thinking to myself, I know nothing about title insurance. And now typically, I didn't offer up all my shortfalls when I'm trying to get a job, this time I just felt compelled to just say, you know what, I'm so sorry, but I know absolutely nothing about title insurance.

Besides the real estate law class you took or classes you took in law school? Yeah, we spent 15 minutes on it in law school. And when I tell people we spent 15 minutes on it, they say, what? You spent 15 minutes on it? We never, it's never mentioned.

And so what he said surprised me. And I was thrilled because real property was my favorite subject in law school. He said, you know what, I don't care about that. I can teach you about title insurance. I want somebody who knows his way around a courtroom.

I was like, oh, I'm your guy, I can do that. He goes, okay, you're hired. It's definitely a skill. It's a different skill. Yes.

And that guy became a mentor to me. And I'm still friends with him after all these years. And I remember that day, like it was yesterday. What's his name? His name is John Pascoe.

John Pascoe. Now, he retired earlier this year. But yeah, we still talk on the phone. And that was 24 years ago. So- Wow.

And that's how, the rest is, as they say, is history? Yes. There were ups and downs along the way. I mean- Of course. Opposing counsel has the ability to make your life miserable.

And so there were times when it was a struggle because, you know, but look, the learning curve in the title insurance business is like this, okay? But it goes, it starts to go like this. Eventually it'll never get flat. And so the beauty of being a title and escrow litigator is that that's all you do. You've got 40 cases at a time and you become an expert.

And most people get a real property case maybe once every 10 years. And so you have the ability to, what I used to call is, talk them in off the ledge because they don't know what they don't know. And it becomes fun. The litigation typically is more defending claims or something besides that? So out on the West Coast, the title insurers are also the title company most of the time.

And so you're either defending an insured, prosecuting a quiet title action against somebody on behalf of the insured, or you're defending the company in an escrow claim. And so those are the major sources of litigation. So when you moved to the East Coast, was the litigation similar or was it a different role? So when I came to the East Coast, I took a job as the general counsel for a large real estate brokerage that had an affiliated title company. And I did that for a couple of years.

The market, that was in 2006. By 2008, the market was in chaos. The brokerage was shrinking and I was really jonesing for title issues. And so I found First American. I've been with them ever since.

And for a lot of years, I haven't worked a day because I'm having fun. It's just what I do. You mentioned 2008. For the younger audience, that was a major real estate crash hit. And I think we went from a lot of transactions to almost none for a period of two to six months until the Fed starts cutting rates.

But when- Nothing but foreclosures. Fancy. That's after like 09, 10, 11, 12. But that's when, in your role in litigation and counsel, typically when the downturn happened, that's when all the skeletons come out, all the claims, all the bad title work kind of services. It's when underwriters become really busy cleaning up messes.

Yes. And it took me a little bit to change how I thought about title matters. So as a litigator, it's, I can beat it. As an underwriter, if I have to say I can beat it, it's a loser. Because having to beat it, cost money, sometimes a lot of money.

And so that was probably the biggest paradigm shift that I went through. And of course, as an underwriter, you really need to know the product. You need to know that all the different endorsements, what they do, when they're appropriate. And that was a big steep learning curve. And so I was fortunate enough to have many people who I could call and ask questions.

And I try not to burden any one of them because I know they were trying to do their jobs too. But I also, in that process, got to have the thought processes of many, so I could develop my own comfort zone on what's an appropriate risk, what's not an appropriate risk, and where the demarcation is. So that was really helpful. And I had lots of, my gosh, lots of mentors along the way. Some of them I even know personally.

Well, as you know, one of the core values of our title agents podcast is honoring the legacy. We're really looking forward to the influencers or the mentors to you and other people in the industry to come on this show and just share their life stories. Yes. I'm happy to do it, Mo. I appreciate it.

I told you before we started, I'm very thankful that you're doing this because it's a good service for the industry and you do such a great job with it. So well done. That means a lot coming from you. Can you explain the role of underwriting in the title industry and why it is so crucial for title agents to understand its complexities? I always say that title insurance underwriting is both an art and a science.

So it's an art because at times the underwriter must get creative to solve a problem. He or she must be able to play out alternative scenarios into the future. So you got to anticipate what might or might not happen. So it's also a science because you need to know what the law says, you need to know what the policy says, and you need to be able to discern the facts of the situation and apply the law and the policy to get yourself to where you need to be. And so what I always tell agents is, look, you're not expected to know everything.

All I really need you happen. So it's also a science because you need to know what the law says, you need to know what the policy says, and you need to be able to discern the facts of the situation and apply the law and the policy to get yourself to where you need to be. And so what I always tell agents is, look, you're not expected to know everything. All I really need you to do is spot the issues. If you see something that's out of place and you don't know what it is, call us, ask me.

I'll be happy to walk you through it. If something doesn't look quite right, ask me. If you don't know why we do something, ask me. That's what I would expect the title agents to do. You don't need to solve the problem, you don't need to take the risk.

That's my job. Tell me what the problem is, let me take the risk, and you close your deals. Yeah, one of my favorite quotes that I always try to instill in my team years ago was assume zero. Don't ever assume anything. Just if you don't know, ask.

Don't think you know. Let the smarter people give you the answers. Yeah, you remember the old line from, I think it was the Disney movie, The World's Greatest Athlete? Don't assume, assume. We know how that goes.

What are some of the most common underwriting challenges you encounter? And how can title agents proactively address these prevent issues in their transactions, and most importantly, delay transactions or kill them? So typically, the issues arise in areas of the law that they're not familiar with. So that could be anything from, or a problem that they've never seen. And so these typically include bankruptcies, estates, mechanics liens, judgment liens, tax liens, distressed sales transactions.

That could be foreclosures, tax sales. Sometimes it's a description issue. Can't make sense of the description. Sometimes it's somebody's asking for an endorsement. I don't even know what that endorsement is.

Or lenders will be asking for endorsements that are issued in other parts of the country. So in Maryland, we issue Alta endorsements. Other parts of the country, they'll issue the California Land Title Association endorsements. They all have different numbers. And so sometimes it's like, okay, we got to go figure out what that number is, or what that endorsement does, and get the corresponding Alta endorsement.

So it's like a box of chocolates every day. Every day you come to your desk, you might have a plan. It's all fully laid out. And then the phone starts ringing, the emails start coming in, and you don't know what you're going to get. So if you see it, you don't have to recognize it, just call your underwriter.

That's what we're here for. Yeah. Can we get a little more technical, like maybe dig, you mentioned endorsements a couple of times. Can we dig a little deeper in endorsements? For those that may not know what endorsement is, I know this is for a lot of agents.

What is an endorsement? What are the ones that you kind of some red flags people have to be careful of? I know especially with the commercial, people ask all these crazy endorsements, and if you don't know what you're doing, it can either look like a fool or make a mistake giving a wrong endorsement, which does not apply. Typically, the endorsements get issued in connection with a loan policy, but they can get issued in connection with an owner's policy. An endorsement adds a specific coverage that's not contained otherwise in the policy.

So there are what we call standard endorsements that lenders typically ask for in connection with a residential real estate transaction. These are like the Alta 9. Sometimes they want an Alta 9 that ensures against potential encroachments. Sometimes the property is in a homeowner's association or a condo association. They want what we call the Alta 4 or 4.1 in connection with condos, 5.1 in connection with HOAs or 5.

And these are essentially saying that the assessments are paid current. Things like that are pretty standard in a residential transaction. In a commercial transaction, you're likely to get, oh, and an environmental, the 8. Again, they always want that. They want to know if there's anything recorded in the public record that deals with environmental issues.

In a commercial context, they may ask for what we call a zoning endorsement. That's the Alta 3 series that we issue in Maryland. They want to know what the property is classified as and what are the uses available for that property. And so you may get access endorsement. So that could be an Alta 17 or 17.1, which is indirect access.

They want to know that you're ensuring a specific access. So the policy itself ensures against laws caused by a lack of right of access to and from the land. The Alta 17 series says, yeah, you got that, but we're also ensuring that you have this specific access to this particular road. And so those are the, you may get, if it's a multiple parcel property that's operated as one, they might ask you for an Alta 19, which is contiguity, that there are no gaps or gores in between the two parcels. And there's, you know, there's gotta be, I don't know, there's about 50 endorsements.

So we'd take all day if we wanted to go all through them, but- I learned a couple. I just learned a couple that I didn't know about. So thank you. You're welcome. So that's what an endorsement does.

The moral of the story, don't assume. If somebody's asking for a certain endorsement, reach out to your underwriter. If you don't have somebody seasoned in your company that can answer that question, reach out to your underwriter. And they all have various different issuing guidelines, and your underwriter can provide you with those too, which explains exactly what the purpose of the endorsement is, and then what you need to do to issue it. It's all available.

And the longer you do this, you start remembering the numbers or what they're for and what the basic requirements are, but it takes time. But you always got your- I have on my desk this, okay? And this is the issuing standards for all the endorsements. Now, I also have it on the computer if I need to do it. It's all digitized too, so- Fantastic.

But, you know, I'm an old man. I grew up in books. So I like to be able to flip through it. Let's switch over here to regulatory landscape. You've been involved in legislative efforts, which has a quite titled bill in Maryland.

How do changes in legislation affect the title industry, and what should title agents be aware of to stay compliant? Good question. I live just outside of Annapolis, and that's the state capital of Maryland. And over the years, I have become very interested in the laws related to real property. It affects how we operate.

We need to stay compliant. You need to know what the laws are in any particular area so you can safely navigate the title world. And so I have worked very hard over the years to make sure that, at least in Maryland, we're passing laws that, number one, make sense, number two, that are clear, and number three, that we can follow. Where we don't typically get involved in policy decisions, but if the policy has been made, then we need to know precisely how to comply with it. And so they don't always listen to me, sorry to say, but through the efforts of the real property section of the state board and the Maryland Land Title Association, we have had a positive impact.

And they do listen to us from time to time, and they take our comments. And we have been successful in getting things done and improved. And so the thing about legislative process is it's not linear. It goes all over the place. You think you have a plan when you start, and then it just takes on a life of its own.

And so you really got to stay with it and not get too frustrated with setbacks because it happens. And so I could tell you some stories about how we got the quiet title bill passed in 2016 or Rolona in 2019, but that would take a little while. What is a quiet title? What was that all about? And you can just maybe share that one.

Okay. So when I became an underwriter, periodically would see judgments quieting title. People would be trying to sell property that was the subject of a quiet title action. Because Maryland didn't have a process to follow, you never knew what the attorney did to 2019, but that would take a little while. What is a quiet title?

What was that all about? And again, just maybe share that one. Okay, so in a nutshell, okay, so when I became an underwriter, okay, periodically would see judgments quieting title. People would be trying to, you know, sell property that was the subject of a quiet title action. Because Maryland didn't have a process to follow, you never knew what the attorney did to obtain that judgment.

And there was nothing in the code that said you got to rely on it. So all of the, everything that was required was buried in some case somewhere. Nobody knew what to do. The thing that broke the straws back, the camel's back, was somebody tried to contacted me and said, we're about to close. We're about to get my judgment.

And I want you to look at this judgment to make sure it's insurable when it's over. I was like, okay, I'll look at it. And it was the plaintiff versus unknown. The defendant was just unknown. And I'm like, okay, well, you're trying to eliminate covenants, okay?

I know there's 24 houses in that development, okay? All of those people are known. If you're gonna wipe out a covenant, you need to name and serve those people. Well, what have you done? You haven't done?

Don't they have to sign off as well? Yes. Either sign off, say, we want to eliminate it, or you got to have some basis on which to extinguish it. And so, I was like, no, I can't ensure this. And then, to my surprise, the judge signed, issued the order.

I'm like, judge, are you kidding me? A lot of times in these cases, judges are not very knowledgeable, and they don't understand. It's like a little gibberish. Yeah, they come from different backgrounds. This isn't their area of expertise.

And so, at that point, I was trying to get anyone I could to listen to me. I was familiar with how California had a beautiful statute. And then, the sponsor of the bill, he goes, yeah, don't mention California. We don't like California. I was like, oh, I'll keep that.

But anyway, so the first year, we tried to get it passed. And when I was out trying to get legislative support, I was talking to one of the senators. He goes, okay, always ask, who is opposed to this? I go, I don't know anyone who would be opposed to this. I mean, this makes perfect sense.

This is really, we need this. And he's like, okay. He goes, famous last words. Anyways, so 15 minutes before the hearing, I get an opposition from the judges. They hated it.

I was like, I said something to the effect of, this is a solution in search of a problem. I was like, oh, gosh. Okay, so that killed it the first year. But the chairperson of the judges legislative committee, he agreed to work with me over the summer. Great man, very nice, very kind.

And so I said, okay, I'll do that. And so I sent him drafts back and forth and he's like, yeah, no, we don't like that. We don't like this. And then he goes, you know, this word in here shall. Yeah, judges don't like that.

Judges don't like to be told what to do. I was like, oh, okay. Well, I don't, you look, I don't really, it doesn't have to be mandated. I can say may. So I changed everything that said the judge shall to the judge may.

May. Okay. And then he's like, okay, that's better. And anyway, so I got to the end and he goes, okay, well, I can't promise. He's like, it's as good as you're going to make it.

So I can't promise you we're going to support it. And I was like, okay, well, as long as you don't oppose it, I'll be, it'll be okay. And he goes, well, I can't promise that either because I'm just one of many. Anyway, so, you know, they did oppose it. It got passed anyway.

And then when it was all said and done, he calls me and he goes, you know, he's congratulating me to get this done. And I go, judge, but you guys opposed it. He goes, yeah, but it was a soft opposition. I was like, okay, fast forward, like three years, four years. And at the time it was called the Maryland Court of Appeals.

It's now called the Maryland Supreme Court. They issued an opinion. They loved it. They, this was the best thing that ever happened. It was like, this is great.

And so it came full circle, but yeah, it was a fun ride. And it's now, you can now safely rely on judgments, quieting title. Cause everybody knows they just have, all they have to do is follow the playbook and they'll get to where they need to go. So, sorry for the long story, but. But with all the time and effort you spent on it, it was worth sharing.

So regulators, God bless them. They do mean well, but a lot of times they go the wrong way about it or whoever barks the most, they didn't listen and they tried to pass laws or legislation. And it's very important for the audience to be members of the local state association or the American Land Title Association that has a voice that a lot of times lobby against some of this regulation that may sometimes don't make any sense. Cause they never check with us. They don't check with the people that are affected or in the business.

They just try to pass this law sometimes and without checking with us kind of. Yeah. So when I first started as an underwriter, it felt like the regulators in Maryland were really against us. And it was like, everybody in the business was a bad actor. And I was like, I can't, the regulators are supposed to protect the public and that's important.

They're also supposed to protect industry because you need insurers, you do. And so you can't make it so hard that they can't function. Now over time that position has softened. And so they do listen. I would say they've struck a balance between protecting the consumer and also protecting the industry.

And so it's more of a dialogue now where it's not a contentious relationship. But if I was a title agent, what I would be most concerned with would be keep your license up to date. Don't wait to the last minute to get your CE if it's required. Know the requirements in your state for maintaining your escrow and operating accounts. Complete your three-way reconciliations at least monthly.

Daily. Daily, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, but send them to your underwriter if it's required at least monthly, I mean, on a monthly. And so, cause that's really where most are going to get into trouble is they didn't accurately keep track of the money and the rest of it will take care of itself.

And you always want to make sure you're charging the correct applicable premium. We've gotten into scrapes in the past. And a lot of times it could be complicated. We have tried very hard to simplify rates to keep them to a point where there's only so many you can choose from to make sure that everybody's getting the correct rate. You always want to get clear written instructions from your customers as to what to do with the money and the paper.

And then finally, you want to read the closing instructions you get from your customers or the parties or their attorneys, even if you know what they say, because they change them from time to time. And you never want to be in a situation where now the instructions have now changed and you're not doing what they've asked you to do. So those are my five or six things that I would say focus on the most. That's great. Can you share a case where a complex title issue was resolved successfully and what title agents can learn from that experience?

I'm sure you have plenty. Well, there's a difference of, you know, there's the claims process and then there's the front of closing the transaction. And so I, on the front end, I've been blessed with the good fortune to work with many exceptional title professionals in the commercial context. And I've learned a lot from them over the years too. As an underwriter, you know, typically close our own transactions.

Instead, somebody comes to us, they've got a big deal and they've spotted the issues and they want us to help them navigate through that. Every once in a while, we will close our own transaction for a number of reasons. We'd prefer not to, but sometimes it just has to be done. And so one of the ones I can remember was this behemoth of a transaction. It had to be like, I don't know, 50 to a hundred acres of an operating a big deal and they've spotted the issues and they want us to help them navigate through that.

Every once in a while, we will close our own transaction for a number of reasons. We'd prefer not to, but sometimes it just has to be done. And so one of the ones I can remember was this behemoth of a transaction. It had to be like, I don't know, 50 to 100 acres of an operating quarry. And it was a sale and loan transaction, upwards of 50 plus million.

It wasn't one parcel, it was like 20 plus parcels that made up all these acreages. There was a major highway that ran through a portion of it. So it's on both sides of the highway. And the lender was asking for like 20 endorsements. And it also included a defeasance.

So a defeasance is where- What is that? Yeah. That's where the existing loan secured by the property has a specific maturity date and the investors believe, or they've made the loan on the condition that basically it gets paid back over time. So you're not supposed to be able to pay it off sooner. But if you want to do that, then you have to go by basically a security that will, or a certain amount of money that will make the payments into the future so that the investors get paid back in full, not just the principal amount of the debt, but also all the interest they anticipated they would earn over the life of the loan.

And it's a complicated situation. It requires timing and it's just complicated. But in any case, the issue that was the biggest title problem was that we've got this 100 acre quarry, the lenders asking for some survey coverage that includes contiguity endorsement for all the 20 different parcels, that there are no gaps or gores in between any of them. And the problem was the buyer didn't want to spend the money on an all-time NSPS survey. And the seller didn't want to wait for the amount of time it would take to complete such a survey, even if the buyer wanted to do it.

So we settled on a product that allowed us to get comfortable that we could safely issue the endorsements. It's called an express map. It's an aerial photo that overlays the legal descriptions on it. And so you can get a good sense of where everything is. And so we were willing to do that.

One thing about title insurance is I never want to say something that I know is not true. So basically when we issue the policy, we're saying this is true state of the, this is what's there. And sometimes you get requests to issue some endorsement where the supposed risk is low, but I know it's not true. You're asking me to say something that's not true. And I'll never do that because that's not the purpose of the title insurance.

And so anyway, but we were able to get comfortable with that and the thing closed. I never heard about it again. So that was a success. That was very creative, the whole mapping thing to satisfy everybody. Yes.

What emerging trends do you see shaping the future of the title industry? And how can title professionals prepare themselves for these changes? This question reminds me of Yogi Berra. You know what he used to say? Predictions are tough, especially about the future.

And so what I think is going to happen is automation is continue, is going to continue to grow. Machines can be trained to do, to recognize patterns and do specific things, repeatable things to take. And that will over time take human error out of those, what I call mundane tasks that need to be done. But a machine may be able to do it better than a person, probably even faster. But they'll never replace the title professional because the machines, they can't interact with people.

And this is a people business, okay? And they can't analyze the data very well to make decisions that are necessary. And so it may, the technology will certainly improve the process and get us faster and better. It's never going to replace the title professional. The way I look at this is like legal forms, for example, okay?

There is a form for everything. Legal forms have been around forever and they never replaced attorneys because somebody needs to know what that form means, what it does. And it's not, filling out the form isn't the end of the story. It's the beginning. And so we're always going to need the title professionals.

There will be changes are just a natural part of the process, but that's where I see technology taking us. Now, if you're asking me, we don't, what are the latest innovations? There are many innovators out there and their new mark, new products come to market every day. And first American is an active participant in this endeavor. Check out, if you've never heard of it, check out Parker 89.

It's a company that invests in new and emerging technology in the real estate space. But first American also spends a lot of money and time creating incredible tools for its underwriters to help them better analyze the situation, make better decisions to be, to get information at their fingertips, to help them serve their customers better. And then we also do create products that are specifically designed for the agents so they can get better at what they do. But if you're asking me what we really need, it's a tool that will eliminate all of the cyber fraud that is out there. We are constantly bombarded by these cyber criminals every day.

I mean, I've got agents who tell me, yeah, I got, I get three vacant land sales, seller impersonation deals come across my desk every week. And these people are very sophisticated. They know that eventually they'll make a breakthrough because somebody won't be paying attention or they'll fall for the story. We need to eliminate all of that. And so, I think I read that cyber crime is like the third largest industry in the world at the moment.

That's an incredible amount of money and it expands every day. I mean, there's just farms of these people just nonstop. So, if we can develop a tool that eliminates that, that would be game changer. Yeah. We had Tom Cronkite from Certified ID as a guest and we also had Gennady from Stewart, a cybersecurity expert on the show as well.

So, that's very important. We're definitely making sure that our audience is learning the new technology, the new threats and how things are evolving. So, that's definitely a very hot topic. As we're talking about trends and technology, I know that the instant title product prevalent now in refinances, how far away from instant title products for purchases if you know about it? Purchases are, they're a little different.

But we are working on a project that would create a commitment that's waiting for a transaction. And the reason why you can't just do the, we do have product, we have a product out there for refinances that is what I can see is incredible and it should allow people to complete refinances very, very quickly and safely. But all of those products that we, those loan policies we issue in connection with refinance transactions, they're going to contain blanket exceptions that lenders have accepted because they know pretty much every property is going to be subject to utility easements, covenants, conditions, restrictions. And they're like, yeah, we don't really care about that. We've done our appraisal.

We know the value of the property. safely. But all of those products that we, those loan policies we issue in connection with refinance transactions, they're going to contain blanket exceptions that lenders have accepted because they know pretty much every property is going to be subject to utility easements, covenants, conditions, restrictions. And they're like, yeah, we don't really care about that. We've done our appraisal.

We know the value of the property. We've done our credit checks on these people. We really just want to get paid back. Okay. And we want to know that they hold title to the property.

But in a sales transaction, the purchasers, they want to know what are those specific covenants that are recorded against the property. I can't just include a bunch of blanket exceptions. So I got to do a search. I got to have some title evidence that allows me to do that. And so the trick is get the commitment ready and just waiting for an order so that when it's done, when the order comes in, it's okay, bring it to date, push it out the door.

That's really where I see that going. So let me, help me understand. So you have commitments on every property that there is or? Yeah, you basically end up with a, what you call a starter for every property. Now, in jurisdictions where the title insurer maintains a plant, that's a lot easier.

Okay. Because every document that gets recorded in the record goes in the plant. It's all geographical indexes, meaning it's tied to a specific address on the East Coast. Index system. Yeah.

It's a little bit bigger, but more of a challenge, but someday there will come a time when we're able to do it. And so, it's probably going to be you and my careers. So I'm closer to the end than the beginning. You're so young, but come on. What have been some of the most significant lessons you've learned in your career and how have they shaped your approach to work today?

Well, there are many, that's for sure. Sometimes I've learned from my own mistakes, but I always say it's better to learn from the mistakes of others. And so, like I told you before, I've had many bad turns along the way. I'd say lesson one, first seek to understand, then be understood. That is number one.

I can't solve a problem where I don't know, I don't understand what's being asked. So, you know, Stephen Covey used to always say, diagnose before you prescribe. So lesson one, first seek to understand, then be understood. Lesson two, problem is how you see the problem. So that's kind of a different way of saying what I said the first time, but I don't know how many times I have gone back and forth with a lender's counsel or a buyer's counsel or somebody who is asking for a specific, some specific coverage, whether it's an endorsement or some elimination of some exception or whatever it is.

And I remember I told you, I never want to say something I know is not true. And so, I have to go back to them and say, okay, I know you want this, but let me try to understand what is the problem that you're seeking to avoid? You know, what do you really want? And they'll tell me and I'll say, oh, okay, well, I got an endorsement for that, we can issue that and you get what you need, I get what I need or I'm saying what's true and we're all happy. So, pick up the phone and talk to them.

Because emails, it can be efficient at times, but sometimes it's just not going to get the job done in team, wash it out. And so... A lot gets lost in translation, as they say, via text and email. And we all see things differently. And so, try to figure out how they see it.

Lesson three, don't panic. All title problems are solvable. Remember that, okay? There's a solution. It has to be solvable because the real property has to be able to be conveyed, okay?

And so, you know, if somebody tells you no, then say, the next question you should be asking is, okay, well, how do we get to yes? How do we solve this problem? No is like, okay, we can't do that, but okay, well, what's next? Can't just say no. So, don't panic.

There is a solution. Let's see. Lesson four, think. Even Bill Gates will tell you that your brain is the most powerful computer ever designed. Think about that, okay?

Then Henry Ford said, well, the hardest thing to do is to think. Because a lot of people, we get lazy, we just want easy solutions, we don't want to stop and just think. It's very, very hard. It sounds simple, but it's one of the hardest thing. Yes.

So, you know, they're all saying, you know, we use the back burner as something to put it on the back burner and forget about it, okay? Really, the back burner was a phrase to say, because when you put it on the back burner and you're cooking something, you're trying to just let it stew and develop the flavors more fully, right? And so, when you get a problem that you don't know the answer to and you're just struggling with, take a step back, put it aside, and then when you have some quiet time, when you're not distracted, think about it. Now, I do some of my best thing, I like to exercise, it's how I release stress, it's when I do some of my best thinking, because my brain will just wander. And sometimes I'll just be out there on a run and a problem that I couldn't solve at my desk all of a sudden is poof, oh my God, here's the answer.

Okay, I know what to do now. Sometimes I think about decisions I've made and I'm like, oh boy, that wasn't good. You need to go back and like, we got to fix this. And so, just spend the time and think, you'll be happy that you did. I got a couple more, but I'm already, I'm like, probably we're way over, Tucker.

Well, the next question I'm going to ask you, we're getting very close to the end here, what advice would you give to young professionals entering the talent industry, especially those interested in legal and writing roles? Number one, invest in your own development. Ask questions. The only dumb questions are the ones you don't ask. Don't be afraid to spread the wealth.

Ask everyone, ask and spread it around. You'll be surprised at the different ways people look at things and I'll give you different answers and then you'll have a plethora of things to consider. Take as many repetitions as you can get. Think of the batting champion, how many swings does he take in batting practice? How many free throws does the basketball player shoot a day because he doesn't want to miss any?

They're free for a reason. So, Malcolm Gladwell in his book, Outliers, he says, it takes 10,000 hours of practice to become an expert in anything. So, spend the time. Don't get discouraged by how little you think you know. Even the most talented and accomplished people I know in this business will tell you that they learned something new every day.

The more you do it, the more you're going to start recognizing patterns and you're going to know, okay, I've solved this problem before I know how to do it. You're also going to get ones you've never seen before. Embrace it. Be added to your toolbox and you'll know next time, okay, when I get that one, I know what to do. So, take it one transaction at a time and you'll be okay.

Number two, last and finally, try to figure it out on your own first, okay? The reason for that is because the farthest you can take it, now that's committed to memory. I got it this far. Now, I can't get over the hump. That's okay.

I need some help. Go get the help. Come up with a solution that you think will work and make that part of the help you seek. Now, the person you go to, they may say, you know what, that is it. You nailed it.

Go for it. Or they say, that might not work. So, try this. But you need to try to figure it out first on your own. That's the only way you're really going to learn.

That also helps independent thinking as well. So, which is a great skill to have. Yes, exactly. Do you have a favorite quote you want to share with us? Oh, man.

I think I gave you all my bullets. Let's see. I always go back to one of the ones I like is, there's nothing new under the sun, okay? But, you need to try to figure it out first on your own, that's the only way you're really gonna learn. That also helps independent thinking as well, which is a great skill to have.

Yes, exactly. Do you have a favorite quote you wanna share with us? Man, I think I gave you all my bullets. Let's see, I always go back to, one of the ones I like is, there's nothing new under the sun, okay? It's all been said and done before, the, you know, human nature doesn't change, okay?

And so, be a student, and just keep learning, is what I would say. How about a favorite book that you recently read, or an all-time favorite book? One of my all-time favorites is Seven Habits by Highly Effective People. There's lots of wisdom in there, and if you can... That was Stephen Covey, he wrote it, it's gotta be 30 years ago.

And it's just, it's a great book. I would encourage everyone to read regularly. The reading is the best way to learn about what others think, because they're gonna tell you. You can have... That's why I said, you know, I have a lot of mentors, some of which I know personally, it's because I read these folks, and the nuggets, the ways that you can pull out of this stuff is just, it's amazing, so...

It's amazing. Tony Robbins says, he's like, you get somebody's life experience, like life lessons, 20, 30, 40, 50 years, like in one book. It's about maybe 10 hours of reading, or 10 hours of listening to audibles, it's somebody's whole life, that's incredible. Yes. And I read, the one I read recently was The Perfect Mile.

The Perfect Mile. Who's that by? I think it's Neil Bascom, he writes a lot of historical books, and yeah, I got it as a present, and I thought I knew everything there was to know about, it's about the quest, the break, the four minutes. And they, at the time, they thought it was not humanly possible to do that. And so, I mean, I couldn't put it down, it was fascinating.

And I learned stuff that I was like, oh, there was other... I always just thought it was, you know, Bannister was the only guy up in England doing it. And I was like, there was two other guys that were nipping at his heels trying to get it done, an American and an Australian. And so... The most powerful thing about a four-minute mile is a year later, a couple hundred people broke it or something.

Yeah. Oh, and oh, oh, it can be done? Oh. Now, Bannister, he didn't, he, yeah, he was the first to break it, but you know, within six months after that, somebody else held the world record. That beat his time.

And now, it's crazy what they, you know, what they can, how fast they run these things. Yeah. It's amazing the power of the mind and the psychology, like it's just, it's literally, it's everything. Well, thank you so much, Bill. And thank you for joining us on this episode of The Asian's Podcast.

The title Asian's Podcast, I mean. It was an honor to have Bill O'Connell with us, sharing his wealth of knowledge on underwriting and the legal landscape for the title industry. If you found value in today's discussion, be sure to subscribe and leave a five-star review and share this episode with your colleagues. Stay tuned for more expert interviews that will keep you informed and ahead in the title industry. Until next time, keep learning, stay compliant, and continue striving for excellence in your work.

Thank you, Bill. Thanks, Mo! Have a great day. And that's a wrap on today's journey with Mo Shamil from the title Asian's Podcast, reminding you that mastering the art of innovation is key in the title industry's fast-paced world. If you're finding it tough to keep up with the changes and challenges, remember, you're not alone.

Our calendar is open for you. Find the link in the show notes and let's connect. Make sure to hit subscribe to not miss out on strategies that elevate and insights that empower. Together, we'll navigate the future of the industry. I look forward to our next meeting in the upcoming episode.

Keep pushing, keep innovating, and see you in the next episode.