Building a Top-Volume Title Company Through Resilience and Sales Systems | Ep 106

In a world where change is the only constant, Mo Choumil stands at the forefront, guiding title professionals to not just grow their businesses, but to master the art of innovation. With every episode, you're handed the keys to unlock unparalleled growth and stay ahead of the curve. Get ready for a transformative journey. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Title Agents Podcast. I am your host, Mo Choumil, CEO of Alltech National Title.

Today I have the pleasure to have a good friend here, Mike Ruder from Legacy Settlements. Welcome, Michael. Hey, Mo, how you doing today? I'm doing fantastic. We always start the show with telling the guest's story, so I want to hear your background, where you grew up, and all that fun stuff about you and your family.

Yeah. Awesome. I, uh, let's see, I'm 40 years old. I've been doing title since I, I started in title when I was about 23 years old. I'm from Baltimore, Maryland area.

So I grew up in this, uh, little community called Timonium. And then I kind of stayed close for college too. I went to Towson University. I ended up actually just moving in, lived in Baltimore City for a really long time, and, uh, actually just ended up moving to back to where I went to college in Towson. So I live in Towson University now, or near Towson University now.

Let's see, we'll talk about the business stuff plenty, I'm sure. But I'm married to a woman that I love very much. I'm very close with my siblings. I have a lot of nieces and nephews. Uncle was my number one role in the world until I had my own kids, which is, I still, uncle's just the best.

But now I'm also a father. So I have a 2-year-old daughter, Emma, and a 4-month-old daughter, Winnie. So 2 little girls and hopefully a boy eventually, but we'll see. Get your hands full. That's right.

Yeah. That's awesome. For those who haven't met you, tell us about Legacy Settlements and your role in the Maryland title, Maryland and DC markets. Yeah. So, well, so Legacy Settlement Services, so we're in Maryland, DC, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Florida.

You know, I, like I said, I started in title when I was 23, I got into it in a weird way. Like, I think almost everyone gets into title in a weird way, you know? I laugh because the only person I've ever heard said they went to college for title was you. And you tell that joke, you went to University of Miami and got your degree in title. And I was like, that's even available?

I didn't know that. So I got into it in a weird way. I'm sure we'll get into that. And I worked for a few companies and then in 2020 I decided, To start my own company. So Legacy Settlement Services, 5 states, about 40 people.

We're really heavy in Maryland. So I think we're probably one of the top volume transaction title companies in the state of Maryland. We're up there. And then in the other states, we're working on growth. So DC, we just get some business because we're close to it.

Same with Pennsylvania. We have an active effort in Virginia, a few great salespeople there. And then we have a— and then the same story in Florida. We have a team there. So So looking at your career today, most people see a successful business owner.

What don't they see? Well, it's so crazy, and I guess it sounded kind of cliché a little, but it looks pretty right now from the outside. For Title, I guess it's a relatively big company and You know, nice offices and great people and energy and, you know, we're all over the place and, you know, the brand's out there and treat people well and all that. But to get to this point, to get to this level where we are and where we're heading, yeah, it's, that's the part that nobody sees. I mean, the best story I guess I have to let people sort of feel the pressure of that was like the transition from From, you know, being kind of the guy that was growing a title company, my old business partner, it was his entity.

The transition from leaving that entity to starting Legacy was just, it was some professionally, probably one of the hardest things that I have ever done and probably ever will do. And well, I never want to do it again, to be honest, but it was a great experience, but it was a lot. You know, you talk about hundreds of transactions a month, people's lives that are working here, people's lives that are coming to join and work here at an uncertain company, brand new. You know, they don't know what's going to happen. You know, everyone had to take a chance on it.

And, and, you know, there's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of risk. There's, you know, there's a lot, there's, there's wire fraud, there's lawsuits, there's, there's, uh, you know, it's, it's crazy. It's, it's absolutely crazy. So you've, uh, you've been open about, uh, overcoming substance abuse.

Can you share what life looked like during that chapter? Yeah. So I, I guess to give you a little background, I, I think, I guess I was always probably an alcoholic and a drug addict. But I never really looked at it like that. I had, um, I, when I was, when I was young, when I was, before I got into title, I was working with my uncle.

He was like my best friend. He was my, my favorite person in the whole world, you know? And, uh, my dad's brother, and he had moved home from Texas. He had moved back to Baltimore and he was like the favorite uncle. I mean, just this, the, the kind of guy, like if you're, if he's in a room, you want to be near him.

Like you want to sit next to him at the table. Like he, he was that guy. I mean, larger than life. The best. So when he moved back to Baltimore from Texas later in life, when I was in college, he started, he bought and sold precious metals.

And so I was helping him cuz I was good at marketing and advertising and things like that. That was my major. So I was helping him, I was finding people. Of course, I graduated college, my last year was 2008. So you know what happened in 2008?

Everyone was selling everything. So it was a good time to be in the business of buying watches and diamonds and gold and things like that. Anyway, long story short, I, I was helping him find customers through advertisements and, and marketing. And then when I graduated college, instead of going and taking this job that I was going to take, I ended up saying, I'm just going to keep working with you because we were doing really great together and it was awesome. I was working with my uncle who I loved, with him every day.

Well, he got, we got set up and it's a crazy story, but he was killed and I had found him killed in our store, our jewelry store. You know, that was December 26th, 2009, and I was really young. So, That was like such a traumatic experience. Like, you know, I found the closest person to me in the whole world, you know, killed, shot 15 times. And so that, uh, that traumatized me so bad, you know, post-traumatic stress disorder, just so much came with that, that, that like, that took the, the drinking and the drugs to like a whole nother level.

Mm-hmm. Because I then was using it to medicate. So I think before that ever happened, I probably already was wired to be an alcoholic. Uh, but that set it off. And also I was at the age where everyone was drinking and, and recreationally using drugs and things like that.

So I didn't really ever look at myself that way. You know, looking back way later in life, I then realized I probably always had the problem, but, but then I went, you know, 10 times 1,000 when everyone else started getting married, having kids, growing up and stopping. And so for the next decade of my life, it was constant, um, in and outta hospitals and rehabs and wanting to die. And it was suffering, you know, and also had a victim mindset too. You know, it was like everything happened to me and I wasn't, this wasn't meant to happen to me.

And so I deserved to be able to, you know, basically kill myself through drug and alcoholism. But anyway, that was the hardest time of my life for sure. And I was sick all the time. No one in the world ever knew it, you know, 'cause out Externally, I presented this, you know, happy, energetic figure, but inside I just wanted to die. I didn't love myself or anything.

And so, um, it got worse and worse and worse until finally, you know, one day I basically overdosed on alcohol and cocaine, end up in the hospital, and I thought I was gonna die. And I remember waking up, like my eyes kind of woke up and I remember that day I woke up, but my eyes came open in the hospital and I just remember I thought, I'll never do it again. I'm done. I'm never this. And mainly my dad had died at that point too.

He died when I was 30. So then after, shortly after is when I, you know, went off the deep end and I, um, said I'll never do it again. And so I've, I went to rehab after that. Um, and I've never drank or used cocaine ever again. So, or pills for that matter.

Yeah. Oh, you're on mute. That's a very powerful story. I did not, did not know about your uncle that, uh, I know about your uncle, but I did not know that he, he was shot and killed. That's a, I can't imagine what you went through.

Yeah, there, there's like, like at the, so for 10 years, like I said, I lived as a victim and it was, uh, it was crazy. But looking back, once I like decided to like, you know, realize that like I have to take my life, uh, into my own hands because no one can save you, save me. Um, you know, it's my decision if I want to move forward and be happy, or it was my decision if I want to continue letting, you know, what killed my uncle and my dad and, and my alcoholism and drug addiction kill me too. It was one way or the other. There was, there was no other option.

It was this or that, you know? Down or up? Yeah. And so finally, you know, got to that point where I was like, I'm, I'm just gonna go up. And at first I didn't look back and, and reflect on it the way I did.

It was small steps every single day for, for years and years and years and years. Now when I look back on it, the crazy thing is, is, um, you know, those things that happened to me, I look at as a blessing. You know, um, if I could choose that they didn't, like if I could choose my uncle wasn't killed and choose my father didn't die, um, of a slow death from cancer, I would choose that. Believe me. Yeah.

But that's not the reality and that's not how the world works. So I accept that it happened and then I look at it as the catalyst to help me become the man I am, the person I am today. How did those experiences shape the person and the leader you've become? Well, actually, I was in a meeting yesterday with this awesome attorney, Virginia. We were talking about certain things and one thing is just that question right there.

It's, uh, we were talking about some competitor title companies in our market and stuff, and, you know, I, I'll never speak badly about anybody or negative about anyone publicly ever at all. But what company we were talking about, from a lot of people in this business, you know, title employees get recycled, all these different companies. Yeah. Everyone knows everyone. It turns out to be a very small, uh, world, you know?

Uh, very small. Uh, especially with, especially within your market, right? So, uh, this one company keeps coming up and whatever the conversation we were having, um, about this company and another one was people leave the company and, uh, they like fear these owners. They fear these managers. They fear these people, uh, because they lead from a place of like fear and all this stuff and, and, uh, and whatever.

Either way, like, I may, I may know who you're talking about, but we're not gonna have the name. Yeah, I'm sure off, off, off record, I'm happy to discuss it, but like, But either way, I, I said, I think the experiences that I had in life, like going through my uncle's murder, seeing him shot like that, um, watching my father die at a young age like that, like I really learned at a young age, especially looking back and reflecting on it, like business is just a game, man. We're just playing chess. It's just wake up, be positive, do the best you can, and learn that you, you gotta be a good person and everything comes back to you that's supposed to. And you can't control everything.

If you can't control it and it happens, it just is what it is and accept it. Like, so, so going through such serious things, like where, because, you know, I look back on my life, I only had, you know, a few bad days in my entire life. Like the day my uncle was, I found him dead the day my dad died. You know, only a few days that really changed my life that are really bad, that, that just still can haunt me when I think about them. I've been through a lot of bullshit in title, but I can never look back in my 17 years it's been or whatever and say, This was the worst day I ever had in title.

Like, it's just part of, it's just business. It just is what it is. Like, you get over it. It's not gonna affect you in 5 years. You know, a deal that falls apart today where you got people yelling at you about, you know, but your dad's death or your— so I really learned, you know, perspective, I guess, what's important and what's not.

So it really helped shape me into someone who just wanted to like be very understanding of people, their personal lives, what they're, what's going on, and, you know, understand what's important in life and what's not. Yeah. So what made you decide to start Legacy? And I'm very proud of you and your success in such a short period. Like, you've done a phenomenal job.

So what was the drive behind starting the company? Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I know I've always looked up to you as a mentor too. So I started at a small title company.

Well, it actually wasn't that small. Started at a company In 2010, right after my uncle died. And actually got into title because of him. He had met these guys that got into buying some gold because they were very well connected and their title company was struggling like everybody was, you know, after 2008 crash. And then, so after he died, those guys were, you know, still connected to them to some level.

Some of them, there was 3 of them today, and they said, come in, you know, you could be good at marketing. And I didn't even know what it was. And I said, okay, I'll try. So I was with them for several years. It was a great experience with them.

I was just doing national refis. I didn't even know what title was, and I kind of quickly got up to doing like 200 refis, 200 deals a month myself. And I realized I was pretty good at the sales stuff. And then I left that company for another opportunity, which was a very small entity. This company was just 2 employees and the owner.

And the owner and I, he was doing about 20 deals a month and I really liked him. And he was like, hey, you know, come on in and be my business partner, you know? So I never owned that entity, but I did grow it from like 0 people or from 2 people to 30 people. And we grew into different markets where he wasn't and ended up being very purchase-based instead of refi-based. Thank the Lord, because if I just stayed refi, I saw a lot of those companies go out of business over the time.

So I kind of took that company as far as I could. And then it wasn't, I had nothing like the, my old business partner, I love him to death. I want, I hope he has a You know, great rest of his life. We're still friends. You know, it was very cordial and all love and everything.

But, you know, I looked at everything and I just said, hey, you know, I want more for all the people around me. I want more for my customers. You know, I want to go to this next level. And it was a really tough decision emotionally, because like I said, I love him, but I couldn't spread my wings and fly unless I left him and I left that company. So I was sort of looking around to see, you know, if there was a good option for me and for all the people I had affiliated with me at this time.

Because by now I have a lot of operations people that want to stay with me on my team. I had a lot of salespeople under me, things like that. So it was, I was trying to do my due diligence for all the people more so than myself that were with me. And, um, and I wanted to create the best title company I could for the people who work at the company. So I went to a lot of companies I respected.

Nothing really fit. Um, I never really wanted to start my own, but once I realized nothing fit, I never looked back. I said, all right, I'm going to do this. And I didn't really talk to really anybody about it, only the people I had to, underwriters, things like that. And I took a year and built it out and the systems and the processes and the workflows and the technology and everything.

And then that was 2020, 2021. Well, really December 2020, we did our first deal, opened up. And, um, and never looked back. Yeah. Uh, so, and no, to answer the question, really my, my main goal, the, my driver was, and my mission to this day still is, I wanted to build the best title company I could for the people who work at the company.

And I knew in turn that would provide the best service to the customers. So, you know, I wanted 401, I wanted health insurance. I wanted to stay on top of technology and tools for them to be efficient. I wanted coverage plans so people can take vacation and when they come back, you know, their work has been covered so they're not stressed the whole time they're out. You know, all these things that I thought were very rare in the industry, you know, is what I wanted to accomplish for the people.

So. Yeah, that's beautiful. What were some of the toughest obstacles early in the process of launching the company? Let's see. Gosh.

There's so many. I mean, there's so many obstacles from large to small. Like you're, I'm sitting here in my office, our head, one of our headquarters is in Baltimore City. And like, right when you said that, for some reason I purposely don't fully, uh, prepare for a, uh, podcast like this because I want to just come off completely authentic and natural and what comes in my head. And the first thing that came in my head when you asked me that question, right outside this door here.

We have an elevator. It's a 5-floor building with a rooftop in Baltimore City. And, you know, it was like our first month open and, um, our copy machine broke and we're doing, you know, we already were doing like 300 transactions a month our first month open. And half, most of the staff was still at the old entity because we, I really took care of making sure we had a plan. We wind down the old one and I take care of my old business partner, made sure he's completely covered, make sure I did it honestly, ethically, everything.

And, and did my best for all the people. So anyone I could transition to Legacy, there was a timeline and a way to do it. And anyone I couldn't, I personally tried to help them get a job elsewhere, help set them up with packages financially and things like that. Like I really tried to do right by everyone. So that was hard because there were so many people involved, so many moving parts.

But, but like that first month, you know, the copy machine broke. We're doing hundreds of transactions. You need your customers to trust you from day one when you launch a new business. So this guy comes, these guys come with the new copier. They're in the elevator out here.

The elevator gets stuck. So all day, fire department, the police here, the copy machine stuck in the elevator with 2 people, things like that. Everything, everything that could go wrong went wrong. But what made it work was everybody was on board. Everyone bought into it.

Everyone busted their butts and did everything they possibly could to, till we could get to a place where we were sort of smooth sailing. You're big into sales and marketing, and I know you've created some systems and flows as far as lead generation, follow-up. Can you chime in on it and share what you're doing? Whatever you want to keep kind of secret, if you can, but I know you're very— I'm like you, Mo. I have no secrets.

I think that if I can say something, And even if it's a title company in my market, can use it and be better. There's so many people out there to work with. There's, you know, it doesn't, as hard as you want to work and as hard as you want to go, that's how you're going to get paid back. No competition is going to steal anything from you. If you look at it, I'm, I'm, I'm a believer of that.

I'm a believer in that kind of mindset, you know, I guess what's that called? Like a scarcity mindset versus, uh, abundance. Abundance. Yeah. I'm abundance.

I'm abundance for sure. So I don't have any secrets or anything that I would, that I do that I wouldn't say. And what I've noticed is even if you say it and you teach it, very few people ever do it anyway. Mm-hmm. So for sales and marketing, like the way we do it now is, you know, we have a full integration with our title technology software, which we're using Qualia, and we're using the CRM HubSpot.

So as a salesperson, I think the most important things are learning how to gain business, right? So how do you get business in the door? So we're really big on just like teaching the basics to people on how to get meetings and then how to get better when you're on meetings and then how to convert meetings and relationships into deals. So once you can learn how to do that really well and you take enough swings at the bat and you just keep getting better and better and better. So you can gain business.

Then we go to the next level, which is with your deals. So as a company, you know, we have deals coming in and then as all the individual sales reps, they all have deals too. So we keep track of all their deals on an individual level within the CRM. So once you get business going, say you're a new sales rep, you know, you follow the formula, you get up to doing 20 purchase deals a month. Well, now you have another set of leads.

to work with the deals that you do. So what we do there is pretty simple stuff, right? And I didn't do it for so long. I mean, started my— another driver for wanting to start the company was I wanted, as a sales rep, like I had all this missing stuff. We were on TSS, green folders, couldn't operate any of it.

I didn't know who was sending me business. I didn't know who was closing business. Like, you know, you didn't have access to data. So once I had access to data, I realized if you organize the data in a way You can efficiently work, use the data to be better and get more business. So the way we use the data in a very simple way now is whenever you get a deal in, you have a gratitude open task.

So anyone sends you a deal, you're going to say thank you, right? And then the way we do that is either through an email, through a text message, or a video email. And that's really up to the salesperson. They can pick and choose. It's sort of dealer's choice.

And then there's also a first-time Client. So gratitude could come from someone who sends you a lot of business, or it can come, you know, first time. So if it's a first-time client, then what we do is we send them a form to fill out. We get their address, all this kind of stuff, and we'll send 'em swag and stuff like that. So we're going to treat a first-time person different than someone who sends, you know, 50 deals a year.

So gratitude though, anytime you get a deal in, you're sending gratitude. Then we use canceled transactions. Anytime there's a canceled transaction, We're going to go ahead and take that and we're going to try to, we find that about, I'll have to repull the numbers, but last I checked, close to 20% of our purchase transactions probably get canceled in some way, shape, or form. Maybe it's 15 to 20 is probably accurate. So we realized, oh my gosh, that's a lot of revenue we're losing.

We're ordering abstracts on all these files. We're putting time and effort into them, salespeople. So what we did was we created a sales sequence on them. So as soon as a deal gets canceled, Same thing. The sales rep will get notified, an email gets sent on their behalf to the listing agent, and then the next day they'll have a call task to call that agent, try to capture that deal back when the next buyer comes in.

And then a drip campaign happens for the next 3 weeks on deals like that. Then we do a listing agent nurture campaign. So every time a deal gets open in Qualia, the way it would look is every time a deal gets open in Qualia with the sales rep listed, it'll talk to HubSpot. And that will create a gratitude open task to thank the person who sent you the deal and a listing nurture task to nurture the listing agent throughout the transaction. And then at the end of the transaction to try to ask for a meeting.

So the main ones we're doing are the open gratitude for current, for, um, for clients, open gratitude for new clients, canceled transaction campaigns, um, listing agent nurture campaigns. Um, and then what else are we doing? Those are the 4 main ones that, you know, are kind of standard out of the box that we want everyone doing. And then we sort of customize it and everybody likes to do their own kind of stuff too. But those are the ones that like the system is completely built out for.

So like the listing agent nurture, for example, a lot of it's with automations. So when you go back to the canceled transaction, when deal gets canceled, the email will be sent on behalf of the sales rep, from the sales rep to the listing agent. The next day it'll be call, you know, the listing agent on the canceled transaction campaign. So all the sales rep has to do is log into their portal and it tells 'em who do they need to be talking to, when they need to be talking to them, and what they need to be talking to 'em about. And then the more repetitions a salesperson has with those activities, the better and better they get at it.

So how do you hold your reps accountable? There's a lot of steps and, you know, Sometimes people just kind of just may not log in or may not follow through. Yeah. And we're talking about humans, right? So I know you're the king of getting these robots to work with Claude and all the work you're doing.

So I might need some of your robots soon, but we're all humans, including me. If I log into my, you know, I guess I was a big sales guy in this industry for a decade at least, right? And I went hard, like, I mean, I went really hard. And, uh, and so now I don't do the sales personally anymore. I mostly will support the salespeople trying to get them to get more business.

But I, from going so hard for so long and developing great relationships, I still have a really decent, uh, book of business. So I'm supposed to do the same things the sales reps are supposed to do. And, and I normally do 'em all the time, but if I look in my tasks right now, I gotta, 30 days backed up of gratitude open tasks, canceled transaction tasks, nurturing listing agents, the same thing. Yeah. So we fight with it, we wrestle with it.

Some people do it at a really high level. Some always, some people do it sometimes at a really high level, others, you know, so I think the next step is to really get a sales manager that can truly manage and do that. We've had different people at different times. This year I kind of decided I'm stepping outta operations completely and gonna be the sales manager. But, you know, halfway through the year here, what I'm realizing is I'm just not a manager.

Like, I cannot manage people. I suck at it. Um, I'm like a, I'm like a positive, help you out, come on a meeting with you, help you land a client, you know, get you, get you fired up. Get, you know, if you're in the dumps about life, business, personal, anything, you know, I, I wanna be your best friend. I wanna be there for you.

I want you to trust me that I love you and care about you and I wanna help you. But, um, I'm not good at every week going to someone and saying, have you done this? Have you done that? Like, so, so I think the best thing I need to do is try to find someone who would be better at, at that role. So what qualities do you look for when you hire, uh, when hiring people in general, either ops or sales?

Uh, I, I've gotten way better at that, but I'll tell you, I can't tell you how many times now I play a game, you know, with, with Ty, who, you know, Ty runs the company basically at TitleGPT. And I'll say, this is going to be a killer. Never going to have a problem. This guy's got it. And then they come on board and a month later you hear some story of why they haven't done anything they're supposed to do.

Or, you know, you think, man, this person's going to be tough. You know, they don't have the personality for it. And they turn out to be a killer. I, I don't know any method behind the madness anymore. So I think you gotta ask all the right questions.

You gotta, uh, what I do now is basically say, I'm really, I was very loosey-goosey about it for a very long time. Now I'm like, this is what we expect of you. This is where the company is. You gotta meet the company where the company is. And if you can do that, I don't have a problem.

So I'm, I'm, and I want, and I say it in a way for people where it's like, I'm doing it to protect them. I'm like, if you are this, You know, this is what we'll pay you and this is the opportunity you have and this is the upside and everything. But if you're not, I'm telling you, we're gonna fire you. You know? So I sort of try and plan basically so it's fair.

So if I have to go to someone and let 'em go, that, you know, we already had that conversation and they know why. And if it's gonna work out, they know. So I sort of put it on them and then do everything in our power to hold our end of the bargain. You know, give 'em the tools, give 'em the resources. You know, hold our accountability side.

But I don't know, um, I don't know how to really figure it out with people until you really get, get them onto the battlefield with you. Was, um, um, I don't know if you ever read, uh, Trump's book, The Art of the Deal from the '90s, back in the day when he was in. And, um, he said it like, you can do all your due diligence, all you, I mean, all the diligence in the world, hiring is a 50/50 chance it's going to work out. I'm like, Like, wow. Yeah.

That's what I feel. Yeah. I haven't read that, but that's how I feel. So, but what I have gotten better at is setting the deal up with people. So, um, you know, there, like for salespeople, for example, it's really tricky.

Like, you know, how do you set them up financially? Because most people can't come on board at full commission, right? It's where there's not really much financial risk to the company. And if it works, it works. And if it doesn't, it doesn't.

So, you know, you, you give someone, so I've gotten a good recipe down what works for us as far as like salary, commission, um, when we want to see you go from, you know, salary to full commission, things like that. And, you know, and then I take it person by person. Like I want everyone to succeed. So if they have what it takes and it's just taking longer because people start in different markets too. Mm-hmm.

Like I think, you know, my brother-in-law Nate, he, he started in a hot market. And, you know, in very little time he was doing like 70, 80 deals a month. Those were refis included. But then rates shot up and things changed. And, you know, he's still top guy killer sales-wise, but his mentality was like, this is easy, you know?

But now someone starts right after the rates shot up, '22, year 2022 or '23, whatever it was. That's a whole different, that's a whole different ballgame to get volume going. So Um, I think it really depends on the state of the market and then, you know, who the person is and then who the company is and what, what you're providing. So with people, so I do take it by person-by-person analysis. And if someone wants to keep going and they have what it takes and they're showing that they're really giving it their all and we believe that they, they are someone that can do it, then we'll, we'll keep supporting 'em until they can get to that point.

So I, I had, uh, our mutual buddy, uh, David Bravo, Yeah. Last episode and he talks about it doesn't care about the market, which is true. Like the cream rises to the top. Like when things are tough and done, it's like the, like who's resilient, who's gonna, who's very consistent in doing the reps and following up with people. That's because the cream definitely rises to the top when you look at a down market.

So sometimes you wanna, you will wish for it in a bad way. We don't want to, but. No, it, well, you're right. It does. The cream does rise to the top.

And, and I think it's important for salespeople in title to know, uh, well, everyone in title really to know that, especially sales, is that like, you know, just like the activities you're, you gotta be able to like understand that whatever you do every day, you're gonna get paid for it sometime. So you need to be able to like separate the mindset of like, I'm gonna do something today and it's gonna pay me tomorrow. You need, you need to know that I might not get paid for this for 2 years or a year or 3 months or 6 months or whatever it is. But like, if you're doing positive activities every single day consistently, eventually you're going to get paid for it. And that can come from a lot of different factors like market, right?

So if you're meeting a lot of people and you're pouring into them and you're providing value to them without getting anything back, no matter what, and maybe you'll get a deal here or there, well, maybe that's all they have. And then all of a sudden the rates drop. Or maybe they catch fire because they got a good referral source, something happens and you've been the person planting those seeds with them. Well, then you catch fire too. Um, or if you do that consistently, the best example is when you consistently plant those seeds, consistently doing the work no matter what, and there's a positive change in the market, meaning, you know, uh, an interest rate drop or something like that, then you explode and then you get paid tenfold on those activities.

So I think, you know, instant gratification is not something that you shouldn't be in this business if that's what you're looking for. Yeah. I think Tony Robbins said it best, said you get rewarded in public what you do repetitively in private. Like it's a very simple reason. I did, when I was a salesperson, I, I just, I didn't ever look at the market, you know, and I still really don't too much.

I do a little more now to sort of like help guide people into what we're doing. But, and the reason I look at it is only like this, like I'll tell salespeople, hey, right now with the state of the market, I would be spending 90% of my time going after real estate agents and 10% after lenders. Earlier when we thought the rates were really going to get to a point this year where there's going to be more refis, I would instruct salespeople, hey, maybe start spending about 20% of your sales efforts on lenders so you can get some of this icing on the cake with refis when they come or whatever. So just for those reasons. But really what I did for 10 years was just on Monday I set appointments, As many as I possibly can.

And then on Tuesdays I go on appointments. On Wednesdays I do brokers opens all day, as many as I can hit. Thursday appointments, Friday appointments, Saturday and Sunday open houses. One or the other day I would do Saturday or Sunday, take one day off. And then every night there was a networking event I would go.

But I was young. I was like, you know, I was young and I was like single per se. No married, no children, not married. And I was wild and I was, and also I was, you know, I was drinking a lot. I was drugging a lot and I was just sales business all day, all night, all the time.

But I kept the same schedule all the time. It was Monday, all day setting appointments, Tuesday's appointments, Wednesday's broker's opens, Thursday's appointments, Friday's appointments, Saturday's open houses, Sunday's off. And then every night there's something going on in real estate. I'm there. So for all of you, um, Sales reps that want to grow your business, Mike just gave you the formula.

It's very simplistic. Just follow his recipe. There's no magic, no secret. It's just doing it, doing the reps and doing, having been systemized and disciplined more than anything. Yeah.

And you know, like, Mo, what's crazy is people want to get in the business for 4 months, 5 months, and then they're kind of, oh man, I'm not making it. It's like, it's not that you're not making it. It's that you just have the wrong attitude about it because 4 or 5 months is nothing. I mean, that's nothing. I, I went on, if I could have half the clients back that were clients at one point, I'd get rid of all the clients I have right now.

If that tells you something. I've had so many clients, I've worked with so many people. I've been on so many meetings, you know, and what sticks is 10% of it maybe, you know? And, and you just never know too, like, you know, one great example I, I like to give is one guy. You know, I just did the right activities all the time.

So one time I had a settlement with an agent that I didn't know. It was his first settlement and the buyer was a mutual friend of ours from college, and I didn't know him as an agent. But I showed up to my settlements, right? And I show up and I bring a gift and then I said, man, let's go to happy hour. I'd love to get to know you more.

I went to happy hour, hit it off. This is a brand new agent, right? So most people are going to think, oh, don't, you know, wait till they get business going. Not me. I'm like, I don't care.

I want every deal you're ever going to do. And this person now has become one of my best friends. He was just on family vacation with me and my family, with his kids, and he started a brokerage 2 years ago and he has 200 agents and we're the preferred title company for his 200 agents, you know? So, and not to mention he does 10 deals a month that we get. So you just never know, you know, you just do the same things consistently.

Somebody's going to be that person and somebody else is going to, You think owe you business and they're going to go work with someone else. It's just how it goes. And there's also people promise you business, they may never send it. Sometimes I'm just going like, hey, I'll give them my next deal just to get you out of their face. And I always joke around.

I'm like, if everybody promised me business, send me business, I would have retired like 10 years or 15 years ago. Oh yeah. It's just a numbers game. Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes people are, they mean it, right?

Like it's not, be taken personally. Like they, they, they're sitting with you, they really like you. Um, they mean to, but then they don't get a deal for the next 30, you know, real estate agents, you know, if they do, you know, if a real estate agent does a deal a month, I think that's incredible. You know, 2 deals a month is amazing. 3 deals a month is, is, is wow.

You know, so it's just, you never know where someone's at in their life and their business. They meet with you, they really like you. Um, but then, you know, they don't get a deal for 30 days and, and their transaction coordinator just sends it where it always goes or, Or out of sight, out of mind if you're not in front of them. Yeah. Or they're, you know, they failed to mention that their aunt is about to become a title rep, but, you know, and then she does.

Like, you just, you never know. But either way, I took it all personally in the beginning of my career. And my advice to younger folks or newer folks in the industry would be learn not to take it personal. Just go put your best foot forward with everyone you possibly can. Like, the formula is the very simple one I said earlier.

Create a schedule, Stick to it, do it over and over again. Now you will get better at it. So don't worry about if you suck at it at first about, you know, now I go on meetings, I know what to say, when to say it, what, you know, you feel people out. When's it a— first you wanna make a, get a relationship developed before, then you want to go eventually, you know, now I, on meetings I'm like, you know, who are you using? You know, what, what's, what's going on?

How's your relationship? Um, look, this is what we can offer you and trying to find a way to see if there's a, there's a way where we can enhance their business and their, their, their life. Um, if we can't, then I say straight up, you know, look, unless, unless I'm a better option, you know, my, my company, my resources, unless we're a better option than who you are now, I don't even want your business. Truly, I don't. You know, because eventually you're going to notice and you're going to go back anyway.

So, um, when you really, you can get really good at being a salesperson in this business, um, by being honest, ethical, but mostly the reps do the reps, do the reps. And you, you also want to really do business with people you like and you like you kind of, it's kind of, it's much, uh, Um, mutual. So the last thing you want to do, kind of somebody different personality, somebody you don't like, I guess, make that transaction so difficult and there's a lot, a lot, a lot of, uh, friction. Yeah. I, I was thinking about that, uh, for some reason today because, uh, I had a client at one point and, you know, he's on a team of one of our other clients, you know, who's still a client and, and the one guy on the team, Sends us, I'm telling you, 10 to 20 transactions a month from one agent, right?

Okay. The, the other agent sends 1 to 2 a month, right? Which is awesome. And we're so grateful. The one who sends 10 to 20 a month for the last 6 years, I have had a problem on his transactions less than, so you do the math.

I mean, it's hundreds of transactions. He's had an issue with the comp— with me. It's always with me, you know, at the end of the day. Yeah. But with the company, uh, which I fall on every sword because that's my job, but, but, um, and I take it very seriously, but, you know, it's usually sometimes if you do a great job, it's even perception.

It's their seller's perception or their buyer's perception or whatever it is. It doesn't matter either way. Less than a handful of times I can ever count any turmoil or any friction or any problem. Meanwhile, the guy who sends 1 to 2 a month, we don't work with anymore. We don't, and we don't want to.

There was problems we had. We did something wrong according to his perception on every deal. Now, my theory on it is that this person— I'm not one of those agents yet. And my theory on it is that that person likes to create frictions and problems to then look like they're solving things for their client, or it's just someone's personality type. It's like, you know, they're like bullying you to send a wire out or whatever, and they're including their client to make the client feel like, oh, this person's got my back or whatever.

It's just unnecessary. Um, people like that, you need to learn to identify. And like you said, you want, you know, you want to let 'em go. You don't want to, you don't want to keep that fish. That's a— that one you would throw back.

When I tell that to reps and they're like, they're like quoting me and I fire my client. Like, yes, but don't do it right away. Make sure you replace them. Like, you're complaining to me all the time. They're making your life miserable.

Why do you want to work with them? Like, just— Yeah. And then I call you and then they eventually kicks in like months or a year or 2 years later. They're like, God, you were right. And now, like, from where, you know, the position that you and I are in too, like, It's our job to create a healthy work environment for the people that bless us to be able to want to be on our teams.

So like, I, one, the deal and the revenue's great, but if it's causing 5 of your teammates so much turmoil and some people emotional distress every deal because they're calling, they're rude, they're mean, then the value of the money you're getting is not worth it at all. And what value you'll get by protecting your people and letting them know that you don't stand for that kind of behavior is awesome. Also, there's a tasteful way to talk to those people. You don't need to be rude. You don't need to put them down.

You don't need to talk about them publicly. Like, for me, it's a really simple conversation. It's like, look, you're incredible. You're awesome. We're so grateful for the deals we've done, but I feel like we keep falling short.

I feel like we keep falling short and we can't, We can't get you the service you deserve. So I'd love for you to go check out some other companies because you deserve that. You know, it's not you, it's us. It's just like a breakup conversation, you know? So, um, what message do you hope people take away when they hear your story?

When it comes to, like, I separate, like, the personal and the business, although they're intertwined, are very different. I think, I think what I would love for people to take away is that You know, and I can cry when I say this, so I'm going to do my best not to, but like people go through divorce, you know, obesity, addictions, death of people they love. Like, you know, life happens, right? Like things are really hard, but you can overcome. You're so much stronger than you ever thought you were.

So like anyone I think deserves, everybody deserves to wake up and have a great life and be joyful and be happy and love themselves. So I really encourage people, because I, like, I mean, I'm telling you, I wanted to die. Like, I wanted to kill myself at one point, and now I'm living a life beyond my wildest dreams. So what I encourage people to do is understand that you have the strength and the power within you to get to where you need to be personally, and then you can create everything you want in your life from there. So overcome whatever you need to overcome.

But I really really like to send the message to people is like, be your best, learn to be the best, your best self and not who, because of what anyone else thinks of you. Like, who do you want to be? You know, Mo, I'll tell you straight up, I, I never was faithful to women. Uh, it was never them, you know, 'cause I had a lot of great women. It was me.

Uh, when I was ready and I thought I wanted to get married and had a family, which I did, I, I made, I changed myself. I made a commitment. I will never, ever do anything Once I make that promise to that woman to hurt her in any way, shape, or form, like, uh, you can change, you can become a better you and, uh, wake up and just be yourself. And I have no skeletons in the closet, nothing. Just get to be who I am.

That's it. And it's beautiful. And when you get to that level, the business stuff goes times a million. 'Cause you see people at work when they have personal problems, they don't perform. So I would say try to be your best, happiest, healthy self.

And, uh, then you can really take your, your business stuff to another level. That's awesome. So what's next for Legacy Settlements? I know you want to take over the world. No, not the world.

I don't think so. So we just brought on an awesome team in Florida. There was a title company that we sort of, I guess you say acquired or whatever, a really awesome woman that I had met. And so her and really these 2 wonderful salesgirls that joined her, They had built, done a great job building a signing service and selling it off. And then, so they all came together as a sales team.

So we just got them to join us in Florida. We hired another awesome young hustler guy in Florida as a sales rep. We're talking to this awesome attorney, business development attorney in Virginia. We're trying to get to join and taking it slow and steady, man. I'm not saying, like, You know, our culture is, that was the hardest part, is incredible.

Like everyone loves everyone. Everyone takes care of everyone, you know? So, you know, it's title, there's obstacles. We have one of our amazing processors who manages our biggest account. She's out on maternity leave and we want her to be out for several months, you know, paid, enjoying it, enjoying that part of her life.

But we miss her here. You know, we feel it. So you have turmoil, people on vacations, like coming up in a couple weeks, we have like 5 people on vacation the same week. So, you know, just doing the best we can every single day and slowly growing, but nothing, you know, maybe letting you buy me, maybe one day, you know, we talked about that. That'll make me very happy to be a business partner of yours.

That'd be like a— yeah, that'd be a privilege. I think we can safely publicly say that, you know, we're both interested in exploring that conversation. So, because I, I mean, I think both of us have goals of like, so for Legacy to be, to double, you know, I'd like to say around this year we're probably around a $10 million revenue company. You know, my goal's always been to get it to $20 million, right? I've always wanted to do that, but no timeline, not forcing anything, you know, whatever.

And so that's a double. But, you know, personally I do get excited about like, I only, I know we can go far, but we're, I think we can only go so far without then making a move to go to the next level again. So like where I, what I did with the last entity, like every time I've changed, I don't just change because I don't like people or anything like that. Like I get to a certain point and then I'm like, I think I've flown as far as I can here and I need to change something to go to the next level. So I think if we can get Legacy $15, $20 million, I think at that point, Something will need to change to then go to the next level.

And those are some of the things that you and I privately have talked about. That's awesome. Yeah, you should, you should very, I'm very proud of you. Like, literally, it's one of the hardest things to do in business, to get to 6-figure, then next hardest thing to the 7-figure, to 8-figure is like a very minuscule amount of companies get to that level. So you should give yourself a pat on the back and— Oh, thank you, man.

That's all. Thank you so much. And it's not— It's not a stat. It's a very Very minuscule stat percentage of companies. Yeah, I looked it up because I saw something, you know, see things on the internet and then I looked it up, uh, you know, you put it in ChatGPT and apparently, yeah, getting to like $1 million is, uh, um, very rare, but $5 and $10 million and then being in business for 10 years or whatever, 5 years, all those metrics are crazy.

But I'll tell you, there was one, there's one thing that I can contribute that success to and it's not me. Like I've done one thing really well. And that goes back to like the leadership thing you were saying. I've loved people truly from my heart. I love them.

I want the best for them and I value them. And, um, they're the ones who did all the work to get it to where it is. But the only reason they did is because of the, you know, I genuinely love them and I care about them and I want to do it together. Um, so it's not me. Like I— Well, you, you had the vision.

You and the company would not be where, what it is for, it's not for, for your vision. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know much in life, so I tell people that too.

Like, I, I'm not that smart of a guy. Uh, I'm not, uh, you know, people want to talk politics or you get with family sometimes and they talk about politics things, this, that. I'm like, you know, Mike, you're a business owner. What do you got to have a say on this? No, not really.

You want to talk about title sales, title marketing integrations, you know, technology, how to hire, how to fire. processes, systems, coverages. Like, I'll talk all day. I know everything inside and out with title, but that's about it. That's awesome.

As we're getting close to the end of our podcast, I always ask our guests a couple last questions. The first one, do you have a favorite quote? My favorite quote's more of a statement, and it came from my friend Mo, and it was, Mike, do you want to come on the biggest title podcast in the world? And And it's number one in the title industry. And listen to this.

I, my mother-in-law's living with me right now because she's getting her kitchen redone. And I'm leaving my house this morning, giving my little daughters kisses and goodbye. And, and my wife and mother-in-law said, do you have anything important? You know, anything big today? And I said, I said, every day, you know, there's something big.

And normally I don't know about it until it hits me in the face. But today I'm going on the number one title podcast in the world. And they all, she'd go, oh my gosh, she's hugging me because, and that's all I told her. That's awesome. Keep it that way.

That's right. So, uh, the next question and last question is, um, do you have a favorite book or something you read recently that kind of stands out? So I've read, um, this, there's a book, uh, that I just recommended yesterday to somebody and I think it's incredible. It's, um, There's a lot of business self-help out there and there, it's pretty easy to find that stuff. But like I said, with my personal story and my journey is become your best self and then you will become your best business self.

I think a lot of times we just want to be our best business self, but I think the secret is become your best self and then wait to see what happens on the business side. So there's a book called The Untethered Soul that I read and it's— Michael Singer? Yes. Yes. And I love that one and I, I gotta read it again.

Isn't it incredible what Michael did? Like, it's just, he didn't talk or he was silent for how long? Yeah. And the way, and it just teaches you really, you know, the way that, the way that we talk to ourselves truly matters and, um, and that we're not our thoughts and, and it's crazy in this business too. Like, so most of the time something will happen and our brain will spin off With a million different scenarios that are all negative, and you'll play every scenario out, and 99 out of 100 of them never come true.

So you're wasting all this energy and brain capacity and negative emotional energy on all these stories that aren't real. So that book really helps with that stuff. That's awesome. Any last word to our audience here? The number one title podcast audience in the world.

I'm so grateful to come on. I know this is long overdue, but I'm— it was— this is awesome. You're the man. Keep going. And I do have a question.

You're getting ready to go to this World Cup game with your son, which is so beautiful. This evening, Morocco and Haiti in Atlanta. How'd you get the Title Agents Podcast in the background? It's a secret sauce. Okay.

Okay. It's just a background. That's the one secret that Mo will keep from us. It's one of my bots. As you know, I have a bunch of AI bots.

I'm going to take a screenshot. I want to take a screenshot here to post on my Instagram that I was on the number one title podcast in the world here with Mo. That's awesome. Well, Michael, thank you so much. Uh, I truly appreciate you coming on the number one podcast.

No, thank you. And to all of you listeners, if you enjoyed this, um, this show, please subscribe. And most importantly, please leave us a 5-star review. And until next time, uh, Michael, go ahead. Reach out to Mo for anything you need Title, because he's been an incredible mentor.

Whenever I have something come up or anything, he's been doing it for a long time and he's so willing to help anybody in the industry. So don't be shy to message Mo if you need any mentorship. Thank you, Mike. In a world where change is the only constant, Mo Choumil stands at the Guiding title professionals to not just grow their businesses, but to master the art of innovation. With every episode, you're handed the keys to unlock unparalleled growth and stay ahead of the curve.

Get ready for a transformative journey.