Real Estate Agent to 7-Figure Success: Pat Hiban’s Blueprint | Title Agents Podcast Ep21

Agents love to talk about their awards and the titles that they get. And there's a reason, cause it actually works. You're building on a success. I was agent of the month, but you're just building on a success up. In a world where change is the only constant, Mo Shamil stands at the forefront, guiding title professionals to not just grow their businesses, but to master the art of innovation.

With every episode, you're handed the keys to unlock unparalleled growth and stay ahead of the curve. Get ready for a transformative journey. Hello everyone. And welcome to the Title Agents podcast, where we bring you insights from the top minds in real estate. I am your host, Mo Shamil, CEO of Alltech National Title.

Today, we're thrilled to chat with industry leader, best-selling author, Pat Hyven. Get ready for tips on innovation, growth, and navigating the ever changing markets of real estate. Let's dive in. Welcome, Pat. What's up, Mo?

How you doing today, buddy? I'm doing fantastic. I feel even better having you as a guest. You're a dear friend and a mentor. So I'm really excited to have you to add value to our Tally audience.

Good to be here. Let's start off. How about a little background on how you get started in real estate, where did you grow up and all that fun stuff? So I grew up in Maryland, in Columbia, Maryland, which is a suburb of Baltimore, right between Washington and DC and Baltimore, and grew up with a family of five kids, my mom was a special ed teacher at a high school. My dad was in property management of condominiums and went to a kind of a local college, a Frostburg State College, about 4,000 students, met my wife there.

I got a degree in sociology, simply because I had to get out on time because there was no free lunch. I couldn't do a five-year plan. So I did the shortest major, which was sociology and then was going to be a probation officer, but that didn't work out and I ended up getting my real estate license. I was 21 years old cause I'm an October baby. So got my license at 21 and then just started selling real estate.

And then I basically was in the game of real estate sales for 30 plus years. And probably 25, I guess. It's always a blur kind of when I got out because agents keep their license and still do deals here and there, get referrals and stuff, but nonetheless, let's say 25 years and in the process had a large, had my own company at one point called the Pat Iden Real Estate Group, had a mortgage company and a title company, and then the market crashed. And basically I figured that was a good time for me to get out was after the market crashed and I had to downsize. We went from a manic time where every dime you spent made you a quarter, no matter what.

And so it made it really fun for a guy like me, who's very creative to create marketing and create television commercials and all kinds of things to try to get business and then it would actually work to nothing working and spending money, trying to pump things up so that they work and they still don't work. So I got out of the business around 2000. I mentally, I was out probably 2009. I got out through a partnership agreement with my number one agent, Mike Sloan around 2010, 2011 floundered for a while trying different things. I probably tried like 10 different ideas over the next five years of how I'm going to scratch the itch to feel productive and make money and get back on top of the mountain.

And out of those 10, two work. One is GoBundance, which you are one of the original members of, one of the OGs. And the other is Dapped Acquisitions, which is our apartment complex company where we buy multifamily apartments. And that's it. I live in Folly Beach, South Carolina, and I have two daughters who are in their late twenties.

That's awesome. During your early days in real estate, what were some of the toughest challenges you faced and how'd you overcome them? I think my personal toughest challenge was I looked very young. Number one, I was 21, but I looked 19 or probably 18. I always looked younger than I was.

And I overcame that by wearing a suit every day, just basically dressed up. I would dress up with no appointments. That guy, I would go to the office every morning in a suit without an appointment. And just looking apart cause I felt, you know, in case I got a call and a lot of times that did happen, I did get a call. And I think people do take you more seriously if you're young and you're dressed up and it just shows you're making an effort, that you're serious.

It shows you're serious. And so that was my first challenge. And I think the second challenge I had was just lack of training. There wasn't a lot of training back. It was basically you show up, you do what they call floor duty, which is you play secretary so they don't have to pay for a secretary and you take messages for all the other agents, you write down the messages.

Oh, this person called, there was no voicemail. And then you would hope that through you taking 20 messages, someone would call and say, how much is that house? And there was no ownership of, oh, that's my lead. It was the company's lead. So you'd look it up in the book or whatever and say, oh, that one's 95,000.

And then you try to talk that person into looking at it with you. Or, and so that was the game and there was no training for that. It was just sit there and do that. And it took me a couple of years before I found the training and the proper mindset, but once I learned it, I felt the world completely changed as far as my ability to succeed. Was there a specific moment when you realized you had found the key to scale your real estate business?

Yes, it was my third year. My first year I made $13,000. My second year I made $24,000, which at the time was both of those years were not. My wife was making more than me, 23 at that time or so. We weren't married, but the point is I was making not much.

And then my third year I made $87,000. And the reason that I made $87,000 from 24 is because I started focusing on listings rather than buyers. And I had to take a course. I took Floyd Wickman's Sweat Hogs course. He was the father of Gino Wickman, who is a lot of people know him from EOS Entrepreneurial Operation Systems, but he was brilliant and he basically said listings are the name of the game.

You need to only focus on listings. If you get a buyer, it's a by-product of a listing. Don't make that your goal is to get a buyer. And I never thought to know that. And most of my business was buyers, probably 80, 90%.

And so I said, okay. And then he said, here's how you do it. You show up, you pick up the phone and then you start calling streets and asking if they want to sell, which seems so elementary, but back then it wasn't. It was, but it was hard, right? Nobody wanted to do it.

Agents tend to be lazy. There's a lot of part-time agents. There's not a lot of focused agents. And I was focused. This is my career.

So I actually did it many times. I was the only agent in the office. I was the first one to get there. The last one to leave out of a 5,000 square foot office and called and lamb hailed the penny thing as it were. And then people started listing their house with me just because I was that young kid, they kept calling them and kept checking and they figured if this guy is serious enough to call me for a year and check on me, am I ready yet?

Then he's going to fire up when it comes time to list. And so that's how it happened. And I began to list houses and it was off to the races from there that I just became a listing agent from there. And that's how it all changed. That's how I tripled, I almost quadrupled my income is just because listings and the price ranges went up and then I just started calling the higher end neighborhoods and it just made logical sense to me that I could have 10 listings, but only two buyers at a time.

Right. So it was just smarter business. So that's how it happened. Yeah. So the moral of the story is persistence.

Persistence and focus, like knowing what to do. You can be persistent at hitting the wrong nail. And I think that's how a lot of agents end up and that's how I would have ended up literally if I did not take that course, I could have easily not taken that course and it would just been a buyer agent and it would have been terrible because back then, like the job flexibility wasn't there either. Like people, like if I've said to somebody, Hey, can you go look at this house on Tuesday at 11? It would be no, they couldn't get off of work.

People couldn't, they drove, they commuted to work, they commuted home. So they generally saw houses between the seven and nine at night or the weekends. And so during Monday through Friday, you didn't really show houses or list houses. It's a lot different now. People have a lot more flexibility than they did in the eighties and nineties.

It just felt at least that's how I saw it. I don't know about you. So after building a large team, what did you find to be the biggest difference between being a top performing sales agent and managing a successful real estate team? For me, it was fun. It was just a lot funner.

Like I enjoyed the hunting and gathering of going out. Monday through Friday, you didn't really show houses or list houses. It's a lot different now. People have a lot more flexibility than they did in the 80s and 90s. It just felt, at least that's how I saw it.

I don't know about you. So, after building a large team, what did you find to be the biggest difference between being a top performing sales agent and managing a successful real estate team? For me, it was fun. It was just a lot funner. I enjoyed the hunting and gathering of going out and listing and then securing, conquering, say the listing, walking away.

I would have all my paperwork in a briefcase or whatever, and you'd spend three hours in the people's house, and you'd walk away with a signed contract for a commission and listing, and it just felt so great. And I really enjoyed that part of it, the gamemanship of it all, and the ego of it all, I guess, coming back and putting your name on the board, who is this young kid that listed five houses this month? But to answer your question, what I found is as I started building a team, I had a lot more fun showing up, motivating people, training people, mentoring people, encouraging people, coming up with creative ideas on how to get more leads for those people, watching the numbers grow. All that stuff to me was a lot funner. I started getting bored in my job.

I did it a long time, right? I started at 21, I was probably 31 by the time I got my first team person. So I was getting bored of dealing with people's emotions and dealing with the ups and downs of the business. So the timing was really good for me. So yeah.

But what risks have you taken throughout your career that paid off? And what risk, in hindsight, would you have taken or approached differently? Yeah, that's a great question. In the business, the two biggest risks I took were one, starting a team, hiring other people and getting rid of my past belief that it had to be me. And that was a big risk.

And also the industries now is there's teams everywhere, but you got to understand that when I was launching a team, not that I was the first one to do it, but that there was very few, 1% of the agents had teams, 99% didn't. That was a big risk. Paying their money, paying salaries out of real estate commissions was people that just thought it was crazy. And so that was a big risk. My second big risk that paid off was advertising on television.

I don't think I would have been able to grow my business like I did at the right time if it weren't for TV. I used to be in telemarketing. Because I was taught by Floyd Wichman to telemarket myself, I began to hire telemarketers. I think at one point I had five telemarketers to just work, banging out the phones at night, calling people saying, do you want to sell your house? And I met a guy who did television commercials, there was a real estate agent in Arizona named Russell Shaw, and he was killing it.

And I was like, holy dirt, if he could do this, I could do this. And I said, what a concept, right? Instead of paying five people to pick up the phone and call all these houses, all I got to do is shoot a 30-second commercial, and this message goes right into the living room just like a phone call. And I could do 200 in a night. And it's 200 telemarketers calling houses.

It just made logical sense to me. So I did it. And the funny thing, our budget for the first month was $2,000 we were going to spend. And the commercial came out on a Tuesday night, and we got a call on the next morning, Wednesday morning, about somebody that saw the commercial. And we just kept upping the $2,000, the $3,000, the $5,000, the $10,000, the $20,000, the $30,000.

It was such a fun time to do something like that work. And it was a risk, because it was a pain. The editing process was different back then, too. You had to shoot a 30-second commercial nonstop. You couldn't stop and start, you had to stop and start.

You had to say all your words in 30 seconds. Perfectly. Yeah. The first commercial I shot took 12 hours. It was brutal, man.

It was brutal. It was so hard. Just in a suit and doing the same movements over. Anyways, those are the two biggest risks. Entrepreneurial-wise, after that, very interesting when I think about it.

I think I would say trusting partners, because up until then, I had never had partners. It was always me, right? I didn't really think about partnership. I realized a little bit that at least in investing in real estate, it's easy to invest in onesie, twosie houses and rent them out, but if I really wanted to get into apartments and commercial buildings and things like that, I needed to do it with partners. That took me to that next step, that monopoly step of trading your little green houses for red hotels.

I needed partners to do that. That was a risk that I took, was going with partners. With David Osborne and Tim Road and Mike McCarthy, the partners that I chose with Gobundance worked out to be a great partnership just because, for those that don't know, Gobundance is a mastermind of business people and entrepreneurs who come together and share ideas. Mo can tell you a lot more about it from his point of view, but what we found is David and Tim and Mike and I were very different individuals. Because when you mix differences into, say, a soup, it makes the soup taste really good.

There were other masterminds that actually started or were already in business at the same time. We look back 11 years backwards, and those masterminds are still at the same numbers or less of what they were then, and we've 10Xed our number of members. I would say that the reason is because their soup just tastes like the only thing in it is carrots, where we have a soup with peas and carrots and meat and salt and butter and everything else. I'm getting back to answer your question, it was taking the risk to partner with people even though we were dynamically different in personality. Running a successful business or a team can be exhausting.

How have you managed stress and avoided burnout throughout your career? That's a great question. I have a lot of good questions here because they're making me think. I have answers, but I would say looking back over my 58 now, so I started when I was 21, just crazy, so almost 50, but let's say 40 years of working. The most stressed was right around between five years in the business and 10 years.

I started in 1988, so I would say like 93 to 99 or something because I was doing everything, no team, just me. I was busy, I was doing three to five deals a month. I was starting to become a really solid agent by myself without a team, and I took everything and inherited everything. It would have been like a doctor who answered the phone, dealt with the insurance, did the surgery, was the nurse, cleaned the office, cleaned the toilets, did the accounting. That person would be stressed, and that's what a real estate agent without a team, you got to do everything, like everything.

And then when the deal fell apart, you had so much more to lose because you worked so much harder for it. I can't explain it to you other than you could have a couple of hundred hours of work in a deal, fall apart, and you got paid nothing. And so the stress was overwhelming, and that was the thing, they could fire you at any time, right? That was their right. We're in a year contract.

This is a good thing for our title audience to understand that realtor, they're so emotionally and financially invested in that transaction when it falls apart, it's a big deal. That's why real estate is so in our butt and a lot of stress on our teams, and it's for a reason. Yeah, you deal with that on the title end of it as well. If it falls apart, you don't make any money, right? You're not getting paid.

And there's a risk reward to those types of businesses. There has to be because otherwise you would quit because of the stress. You'd be like, if I'm only making as much as a social worker's going to make or a probation officer's going to make for all this stress, I'll just quit and do that and have paid holidays and everything else. So that was the deal with that. So it was tough.

And so there were times actually, I remember a time specifically where I was sitting in my driveway and I had just lost two listings that I listed and two deals fell apart. It was the same lady who listed two houses with me and then she fired me. And I was sitting in my driveway and getting ready to go inside and I was like, I quit. I had made up my mind in that moment to become a lawyer. Like I'm going to go to law school.

I got some money saved up. I'm going to go to law school and I'm going to become a lawyer because this is BS. I don't need this. And of course, the next day I woke up and I was fine. I was like, screw her.

I'm with the next one. I felt a lot better. The sun came out. But that was a stressful time. I still have memories of being on vacation, trying to go be on vacation and worrying about deals when my first daughter was born.

I actually on the, I'm embarrassed to say this, but on the way to the hospital. a lawyer like I'm gonna go to law school I got some money saved up I'm gonna go to law school and I'm gonna become a lawyer cuz this is BS I don't need this and of course the next day I woke up and I was fine I was like screw her on with the next one I felt a lot better the Sun came out but that was a stressful time I still have memories of being on vacation trying to go be on vacation and worrying about deals when my first daughter was born I actually on the I'm embarrassed to say this but on the way to the hospital after my wife's water broken I swung by the office with her in a car to send a fax just cuz I knew I was gonna be out for 24 hours or so or more with the baby and her and however long it took for the baby to come out and me to be there but that's the type of stress it was like I was just all consuming and I did not like that I would say that would be the most stressful time and then after I hired a team and figured things out with a team I became less and less stressed because other people were taking on that stress and then as I got more and more competent people that I trusted that stress went less and less then after real estate as I began to hang around business people that had more business than me like David Osborne and Mike McCarthy and such their go-to was basically to find incredible people and let them run and not worry about it all but have metrics for them to check in to and goals and aspirations but really don't micromanage at all when you don't micromanage at all there's no stress providing you're making a profit right and then I learned that so going back to your question it was a gradual thing over time in the beginning it was massively stressful and then over time it's less now I look very stress-free life now I was doing our one sheet with Aaron West and Jim Shields who you know and a one sheet is where it's like a baseball card where you flip the baseball card over the back and you have statistics and I was doing my one sheet the other day and Aaron West said to me you don't have any girls that are with a cult like you don't have any girls that are it goes in now and then to me that meant stressful and I said yeah I don't want any difficult because I don't yeah it's like why would I want to add stress so it doesn't make sense now but at the time I wanted to add stress because stress equaled more money in my head yeah that was the only way I knew how it took 40 years to figure it out but that's how you grow to like when there is like a diamond diamond gets refined through pressure and that's how you get better and get stronger and that's also like the saying in your genius zone and our good friend Fred Gross and he said like that say in your lane say in your high dollar producing activity and let everybody else do their great at you're happy they're happy everybody's doing what they're good at and they enjoyed it right the power leverage and you have to know what you're supposed to do and generally you're supposed to do like you said dollar productive activities things that make you money or don't do anything at all so anyways let's shift gears here and your best time author your book six steps to seven figures is a wealth building guide can you share one or two principles from the book that listeners our title professionals can start implementing today to help them build wealth yeah absolutely so basically in the book I sent out to write the book and I made it like an autobiography kind of my life in the real estate game from 21 to 46 let's say years of age and all the steps that I had taken and then the publisher took it in there like you need to cut it in half it was for our pages so I cut it in half and then they said don't make it a chronological thing I want you to figure out how to do it so it's more teachable than a story lesson so then that's how we came up with six steps there were six specific steps which the fifth step is my favorite which is build I think I have a lot of fun building build on a success up not a ground up that's something that mentor my once told me said build on a success up not a ground up and what that meant is if you're a real estate agent and you sell a house to a doctor or a police officer and I actually did this I did it with the police Howard County police I sold a house coincidentally guy called and I met him and sold in the house and he happened to be a cop and we hit it off and I just was like who else just like I always do try to hit him up for referrals he referred me to another cop and every cop that I got from that point on I would just name names and they were a tight-knit community they like know each other and once you work with one cop then it like in they trust you like you got good credit and they check you out too though I'm sure they look he even told me the guy Daryl his name was Daryl the first guy he told me he did a background check on me before he even started working with me and the big brother exactly yeah and so he told the other cops and next thing you know it was probably sold ten plus cops houses but every cop that I said I was like oh yeah I sold a house at Daryl Thompson I sold a house to Gary Gardner I was sold a house to this guy and eventually I sold a house to the chief and that was huge I was like oh I sold chief a house I was building on success up and I did that with everything I don't care if even if it was like a teacher and I only sold one teacher a house like seven years prior I would make sure I knew everything about that teacher from memory or whatever when I saw that teacher I would say oh do you know her oh yeah I know her and then as an agent agents love to talk about the awards and the titles that they get and there's a reason because it actually works right you're like you're building on it a success I was agent of the month February 1997 but I'm even if it's like 9 2004 by then but you're just building on a success up and it worked real well and the of the six I say that was that's what favorite probably the second one which is track there's an old saying I think Jim Rohn says that which is tracked expands and I think that's true and the title business I think it's true and the real estate sales or any business really you have to track everything you should be tracking the number of calls you're dealing the number of people the profit at massive tracking cannot hurt and so it just makes it grow the more you track it the more you pay attention especially if you have a team and they know you're tracking they become highly accountable once they know you're tracking so the whole chapter talks about how I track things over time and now I had fun with tracking you could have games with your staff with tracking one of the things we're doing at go bunnets now is we're putting regional leaders I think we have seven regional leaders of different regions throughout the u.s. and you can believe that we're gonna track each of those seven and compare them to each other and like your friend John Edwin who thinks he's gonna track number one out of seven it's gonna find out awful fast that he may be tracking three to four in any given months and I'm gonna give him hell about that and he's gonna be like damn I didn't know Ivan's tracking right it's tracking works for everybody all around so I would say those are my two favorites in house you had a very successful podcast called real estate rock stars mm-hmm after an interview in a hundreds of real estate a top real estate professionals and teams what are some of the most memorable lessons or insights you've taken away when I make you think yeah I'm laughing because I remember why but it must be because this is two things come to mind and both were very young agents and I don't have the names I apologize but I remember talking to one young agent who was fresh out of like high school he was a like a telemarketer for a weight loss program or whatever and the day he got his license he left his job didn't give two weeks notice didn't have business cards and went to the real estate office and just started calling people and say hey I've got my license can I be your agent just so simple I just started talking to everybody texted all of his friends I have my real estate license can I be your agent and he was very successful at such a young age and the moral that story was like he just did the simplest thing but he did the most important thing which was just ask for the order right just nothing else matters they were like oh do you want do you need a desk do you want to do this do you want to come up with I don't know planning do you want a couple days of plan they were put do you got to go through six months of training and all this stuff and he was like I don't want any of that I just want to let people know I have a license he was taking pictures of it and text me look I got a license he didn't have a college degree and I don't even know if he graduated high school so is it so excited to get a license and he was just proud of that license the next one is I remember a young couple that I met I believe they were they got out of the military they were both in the military and they both got out of the military and they realized that the majority of their competition just wanted to email and text and they said no we're going to take it to another level we're going to go together as a couple to the house anytime someone wanted to talk to us would be like are you home now or when will you be home and they would always go in person even if it was a five-minute conversation on their front step and then when they listed a house they would stop by constantly right like the opposite of texting petition just wanted to email and text and they said no we're gonna take it to another level we're gonna go together as a couple to the house anytime someone wanted to talk to us would be like are you home now or when will you be home and they would always go in person even if it was a five-minute conversation on their front step and then when they listed a house they would stop by constantly right like the opposite of texting and calling they would be there for the home inspection they would be there for every every other agent that showed the house one spouse or the other would make it over there and accommodate all showings the average listing that they took they might have been there 30 times to the house and they were able to charge full commission and get incredible reviews just because they were like always in the face of the consumer and all the other agents in their competition mind you who had been in the business 20 years and by the way this was like in a high-end area like these are houses like a million two million dollars so the agents that have been in business 20 30 years that thought they own this market of these high-end houses had no idea what was going on that there was these two young kids that were former military that gave such phenomenal face-to-face service for the same price and it just made all the other agents in their market especially one agent who was like the Queen they call her the Queen and their goal was to take down the Queen she lost it because she lost a couple listings of them and she couldn't understand why because she was just old school when they were just their own school I don't even call new school that was it they were just in there didn't want to do phones and text didn't want to do email so anyways those two come out the mind as what your people can learn I think that were phenomenal interviews. And now we're going to talk about mentors who are your most influential mentors and what last advice did they give you that shapes your career? So the first mentor I ever had was a guy named Irv Norgren when I got into real estate I was 21 people don't believe this but it was a women's game it was 1987 90% of the real estate agents were women the office I was in it was a company called Grimpler Realty there's 41 agents there was one man it just so happened that I was able to sit next to him and he taught me a ton because I remember calling like I sat in open house and I was following up with the buyers of the open house and I said some things and he said to me try saying this and literally the next call I said it and he was like wow and then two weeks had passed and he got on the phone and he was talking to somebody then he hung up then I called someone and got on the phone and basically emulated his whole conversation just repeated what he said and I hung up and he goes it's starting to echo in here and so but he really liked that it actually encouraged him the fact that I was copying him and actually listened to him really inspired him to help me more and then he started giving me leads and he'd be like look I can't handle this this guy called me today I don't got time to call him back and you call him and he started just hooking me up and just because he knew that I would follow up and so he was my first mentor and then I think Floyd Wichman was a catalyst too because the Floyd basically taught me that I needed to be a listing agent rather than a buyer agent and then Howard Britton was a big mentor me I think Howard taught me team building and that was a catalyst and then I would say Russell Shaw was the guy that taught me how to do TV commercials so those were probably the level that of every mentor that I had that really paid off.

What projects or goal you're working on now that's your most excited about? Wow so I'm from Maryland both of my daughters moved south to Charlotte North Carolina I live in Charleston South Carolina which is about four hours from there and as a good mother and father should I believe or at least try to you want to be near your kids hopefully we'll get some marriages engagements and some grandkids and things like that in the future. What's our goal to move to Charlotte North Carolina and that's I think a big life goal that I have to be bicycle distance to my kids and to some grandkids hopefully and that's all hope there's a lot of hope I'm in that kind of post-college graduation pre-marriage stage with my kids so you're in this floating feelings like okay we have a lot of free time and we spend a lot of time together as a husband and wife but at the same time and I like to move things along so that would be my biggest goal now is to start spend a lot more time in Charlotte North Carolina which is gonna be a whole new city for me I've been there a couple of times but it's gonna be a whole new experience like experiencing new cities and meeting new people and things. Awesome do you have a favorite quotes? I have a lot of favorite quotes one of my quotes that comes to mind is that there's one of my favorite books is as a man thinketh and James Allen says and as a man thinketh the calm serene man is always loved and revered and I think to that a lot because so much toxicity and fighting and do us on Twitter and stuff like this and news and politics and other stuff these days and but the end of the day the people that we actually look towards are the guy that's sitting there at peace that old man that's sitting there at peace and just we'll see maybe not it could be you could be right but you could be wrong you know what I mean I've always been attracted to that and so I always remember that from James Allen is the calm serene man is always loved and revered that's the one that comes to mind today.

That's awesome do you have any last words for our audience? Words of wisdom? Words of wisdom yeah I'm trying what can I say it wouldn't be a cliche I would say you don't know I guess the one thing I don't the one thing I've learned over 40 some years of business and doing different things is you really don't know how to do it but somebody else does or can at least lead you in that direction and it's important to follow directions and sit in a corner and do what you're told if somebody has a track record of whatever it is title mortgage real estate go with the person who has a track record and emulate them and do exactly like they did not exactly but put your own spin on it put your own personality your own style on it but they know more than you and and that's been true to me whether it was real estate, dapd acquisitions, apartments, gobundance, any of my ventures I've always tended to been wrong in the beginning and needed people to bat me on that side one way or the other whack me a couple of times and and till I figured out which is the right way to go and you just don't know you just I guess the key is just to keep moving forward that's a cliche but it's so true right just keep moving forward and keep following the leaders in the field as to what's working for them and it should work for you too. Thank you so much that's a wrap for today's episode with Pat Hyven thanks for tuning in if you enjoyed our conversation be sure to subscribe for more expert insights keep innovating stay ahead and we'll see you in the next episode with title agents podcast thank you Pat. And that's a wrap on today's journey with Mo Shamil from the title agents podcast reminding you that mastering the art of innovation is key and the title industries fast-paced world if you're finding it tough to keep up with the changes and challenges remember you're not alone our calendar is open for you find the link in the show notes and let's connect make sure to hit subscribe to not miss out on strategies that elevate and insights that empower together we'll navigate the future of the industry I look forward to our next meeting in the upcoming episode keep pushing keep innovating and see you in the next episode